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From:
<mailto:rca-member-discussion-forum@googlegroups.com>rca-member-discussion-f=
orum@googlegroups.com
I like the sentiment. Not sure about the actual=20
suggestion. Any thoughts on doing something, or=20
not,to acknowledge the current situation?
Rav Druckman was basically raised by Rav Zvi Yehuda Kook. When the latter died, on Purim, Rav Druckman said that today is a day of celebration. Tomorrow, we'll mourn.
Ben
Professor, what allows you, collectively, the community, to publicly mourn
on the Chag? Not having the 7th hakafa does not sound like an appropriate
halachic response.
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Professor, what allows you, collectively, the=20
community, to publicly mourn on the Chag?=C2 Not=20
having the 7th hakafa does not sound like an appropriate halachic response.=
=C2
I merely sent out an email that I received. It is not necessarily my=
opinion.
That being said, IMO I think that much of what=20
goes on in shuls on ST is not=20
appropriate. Drunkenness, eating large=20
quantities of food, silliness,=20
etc. are, IMO, not appropriate for ST. Have a=20
look at A. Ya'ari's sefer Toldos Chag Simchas=20
Torah to see how ST was celebrated over the centuries.
I do not stay for Hakafos at night on ST. There=20
were no Hakafos at night in=20
Germany, and, IMO, the reading of the Torah at night is problematic.
On ST morning I ran the Hashkama Minyan at the YI=20
of Ave J in Flatbush. We started at 7 am and=20
order and decorum were the themes of the=20
day. The Hakafos were timed and took about 35=20
minutes total in time. There was quiet during=20
the davening both for Shachris and Musaf. The=20
kohanim were told that they would duchan during=20
Musaf, and there would be singing during the=20
duchening as on other Yomim Tovim. Since there is=20
no drinking during shachris, indeed, there is no=20
drinking during davening at all, I saw no reason=20
for the Kohanim to duchan during=20
shachris. (BTW, Rabbi Arthur Scroll mentions in=20
his Machzor that some congregations duchan during=20
musaf on ST. I consider our minyan "some congregation.")
We finished everything by 10:25 am. At least 75=20
men and boys showed up for this davening. (We cannot accommodate many=
more.)
I see no need to cancel this kind of ST davening=20
and hence ST can proceed in this fashion IMO.
YL
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<font size=3D3>At 02:52 PM 10/8/2015, Saul Guberman wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">Professor, what allows you,
collectively, the community, to publicly mourn on the Chag?=C2 Not
having the 7th hakafa does not sound like an appropriate halachic
response. =C2 </blockquote><br>
I merely sent out an email that I received. It is not necessarily
my opinion.<br><br>
That being said, IMO I think that much of what goes on in
shuls on ST is not appropriate. Drunkenness, eating large
quantities of food, silliness, etc. are, IMO, not
appropriate for ST. Have a look at A. Ya'ari's sefer
Toldos Chag Simchas Torah to see how ST was celebrated over the
centuries.<br><br>
I do not stay for Hakafos at night on ST. There were no Hakafos at
night in Germany, and, IMO, the reading of the Torah at
night is problematic.<br><br>
On ST morning I ran the Hashkama Minyan at the YI of Ave J in
Flatbush. We started at 7 am and order and decorum were the themes
of the day. The Hakafos were timed and took about 35 minutes total
in time. There was quiet during the davening both for Shachris and
Musaf. The kohanim were told that they would duchan during Musaf,
and there would be singing during the duchening as on other Yomim Tovim.
Since there is no drinking during shachris, indeed, there is no drinking
during davening at all, I saw no reason for the Kohanim to duchan
during shachris. (BTW, Rabbi Arthur Scroll mentions in his
Machzor that some congregations duchan during musaf on ST. I
consider our minyan "some congregation.")<br><br>
We finished everything by 10:25 am. At least 75 men and boys showed
up for this davening. (We cannot accommodate many more.)<br><br>
I see no need to cancel this kind of ST davening and hence ST can proceed
in this fashion IMO.<br><br>
YL</font></body>
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A/A is for discussion.
What does running a Minyan with your decorum rules and your timing have to
do with cancelling the 7th hakafa to mourn a tragedy? The premise of the
piece that you posted is to have some mourning /awareness of tragedy during
the Chag. That is what I am commenting on. We can have another
conversation about the halalchically appropriateness of the various
practices done in many shuls on Simchas Torah.
Saul
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A/A is for discussion. =C2
What does running a Minyan with your decorum=20
rules and your timing have to do with cancelling=20
the 7th hakafa to mourn a tragedy?=C2 The premise=20
of the piece that you posted is to have some=20
mourning /awareness of tragedy during the Chag.=20
=C2 That is what I am commenting on.=C2 We can=20
have another conversation about the=20
halalchically appropriateness of the various=20
practices done in many shuls on Simchas Torah.
One more time, I did not write the email that=20
you are referring to, and I personally never=20
advocated cancelling the 7th HaKafa. However,=20
if I recall correctly, there were places that=20
made only 3 Hakafos and some 5, so what is the big deal?
The entire ST has evolved and IIRC correctly 7 hakafos is not in stone.
YL
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<font size=3D3>At 03:55 PM 10/8/2015, Saul Guberman wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">A/A is for discussion. =C2&nb=
sp;
<br><br>
What does running a Minyan with your decorum rules and your timing have
to do with cancelling the 7th hakafa to mourn a tragedy?=C2 The
premise of the piece that you posted is to have some mourning /awareness
of tragedy during the Chag. =C2 That is what I am commenting
on.=C2 We can have another conversation about the halalchically
appropriateness of the various practices done in many shuls on Simchas
Torah. </blockquote><br>
One more time, I did not write the email that you are referring to,
and I personally never advocated cancelling the 7th HaKafa.
However, if I recall correctly, there were places that made only 3
Hakafos and some 5, so what is the big deal?<br><br>
The entire ST has evolved and IIRC correctly 7 hakafos is not in stone.
<br><br>
YL</font></body>
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: I merely sent out an email that I received. It is not necessarily my opinion.
But you do state your opinion when you reposted the email:
I like the sentiment. Not sure about the actual suggestion.
: That being said, IMO I think that much of what goes on in shuls on
: ST is not appropriate. Drunkenness, eating large quantities of
: food, silliness, etc. are, IMO, not appropriate for ST...
I have not been in a shul that tolerated silliness (kids tying the men's
talleisim together, sprinkling water on the bal tefillah when he says
"umorid hageshem" etc...) in decades.
There are also major halachic problems discussed here in the past with the
evening hakafos. And other pro forma issues with standard ST observance.
But what does that have to do with an email advocating reducing dancing
and hakafos, which were not on your list, in light of tragic current events?
How does your dislike for other ST practices relate to a call for aveilus
betzibur on Shemini Atzeres?
...
: We finished everything by 10:25 am. At least 75 men and boys showed
: up for this davening. (We cannot accommodate many more.)
Most of whom then eat brunch and join the main dancing, but without a
long shleppy wait for aliyos and mussaf taking up much of the afternoon.
: I see no need to cancel this kind of ST davening and hence ST can
: proceed in this fashion IMO.
Vesamachta bechagekha vehayisa akh sameiach is inconsistant with
calls for minimizing activities that evoke simach in the majority of
people who do not share your proclivities.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
I did not say that having 7 hakafos is written in stone. You mentioned the
minhagim of Germany. It is not the only place that has minhagim. To
deminish the Chag is a serious issue. Below is an excerpt of what happened
on Shemini Atzeres in Neriya, the town that the Henkins' HYD lived in.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/simchat-torah-in-the-henkins-hometown
A few weeks ago, Naama Henkin HY”D expressed to another friend that she
would like to have a shiur (Torah class) while the men were dancing the
traditional *hakafot* with the Torah, instead of just watching the men
dance (although we do have women’s dancing as well – including a few women,
our youth, and always our rabbanit of Neriya). That friend spread the word
and we held a shiur in her memory and in her merit during the *hakafot*.
When Rabbanit Henkin walked in during the Torah class and was told what it
was about, she decided to contribute a few words as well. She gathered all
her strength, and, as difficult as it was, she bravely added that the last
verse of the Torah says: “And G-d said unto him (Moses): This is the land
which I swore unto Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob saying: Unto thy descendants
will I give it, I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but over to
there shalt thou not pass” (Deuteronomy 34: 4). Rashi explains the deep
significance of this for the whole mission of Moses, that it’s not that you
die now and hence you rest, but rather, look, now your mission is to pray
and advocate for the nation as they will go onto the next step in their
entrance to the land. So too, Rabbanit Henkin continued, Eitam and Naama
HY”D are not relived of their duties. They are not resting in peace. They
have a mission. And they need to advocate for us at our next step towards
redemption. The final circle of dancing went on longer than ever. It could
not be stopped, and culminated with the song, “Am Yisrael Chai.”
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A few weeks ago, Naama Henkin HY=E2=80=9DD expressed=20
to another friend that she would like to have a=20
shiur (Torah class) while the men were dancing=20
the traditional=C2 hakafot=C2 with the Torah,=20
instead of just watching the men dance (although=20
we do have women=E2=80=99s dancing as well =96 including=20
a few women, our youth, aand always our rabbanit=20
of Neriya). That friend spread the word and we=20
held a shiur in her memory and in her merit during the=C2 hakafot.
I am going to take this opportunity to raise a=20
point that has bothered me for years.
IMO ST has no place in EY. The Torah in EY was=20
originally read according to a 3 or 3.5 year=20
cycle. Indeed, still in the 12th century there=20
were two shuls in Egypt, one that leined the way=20
we do now and another that followed the 3 year=20
cycle. Clearly, for those who followed the 3=20
year cycle there was no ST celebration every=20
year. Hence there was no ST celebration in EY originally.
I fail to understand why when the Jews returned=20
to EY they adopted the yearly cycle of completing=20
the reading of the Torah rather than going back=20
to the original 3 or 3 and half year cycle.
Add to the this fact that one is not supposed to=20
dance on Shabbos and Yom Tov. (I know that today=20
there are many who are maikel, but still this is=20
the halacha.) Outside of EY ST is=20
d'rabbonim, so dancing is perhaps=20
permitted, but it seems to me it is certainly=20
not permitted in EY on SA which is also when hakafos are done in EY.
YL
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<font size=3D3>At 05:29 PM 10/8/2015, Saul Guberman wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">A few weeks ago, Naama Henkin
HY=E2=80=9DD expressed to another friend that she would like to have a shiur
(Torah class) while the men were dancing the traditional=C2 <i>hakafot</i>=
=C2
with the Torah, instead of just watching the men dance (although we do
have women=E2=80=99s dancing as well =96 including a few women, our youth, a=
and
always our rabbanit of Neriya). That friend spread the word and we held a
shiur in her memory and in her merit during the=C2
<i>hakafot</i>.</blockquote><x-tab>
</x-tab><br>
I am going to take this opportunity to raise a point that has bothered me
for years.<br><br>
IMO ST has no place in EY. The Torah in EY was originally read
according to a 3 or 3.5 year cycle. Indeed, still in the 12th
century there were two shuls in Egypt, one that leined the way we
do now and another that followed the 3 year cycle. Clearly, for
those who followed the 3 year cycle there was no ST celebration every
year. Hence there was no ST celebration in EY originally.<br><br>
I fail to understand why when the Jews returned to EY they adopted the
yearly cycle of completing the reading of the Torah rather than going
back to the original 3 or 3 and half year cycle. <br><br>
Add to the this fact that one is not supposed to dance on Shabbos and Yom
Tov. (I know that today there are many who are maikel, but
still this is the halacha.) Outside of EY ST is d'rabbonim,
so dancing is perhaps permitted, but it seems to me it is certainly
not permitted in EY on SA which is also when hakafos are done in
EY.<br><br>
YL</font></body>
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But you do state your opinion when you reposted the email:
> I like the sentiment. Not sure about the actual suggestion.
Not true. Again, these were not my words, but were those of the
person who sent me the email.
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<font size=3>At 04:43 PM 10/8/2015, Micha Berger wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">But you do state your opinion
when you reposted the email:<br>
> I like the sentiment. Not sure about the actual suggestion.<br>
</blockquote><br><br>
Not true. Again, these were not my words, but were those of the
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: IMO ST has no place in EY. The Torah in EY was originally read
: according to a 3 or 3.5 year cycle...
I thought it was a 3 yr cycle from Shavuos to the third Shavu'os after.
The 3 yr cycle is one of the examples cited to show the EY origins of
Ashkenaz, actually. So you could make a stronger argument that Ashkenazim
have less reason to observe Simchas Torah than does EY's more mixed
populace.
But the current system has been the norm for some 1200 years. And
celebrating a siyum doesn't really depend on the age of the custom for
timing the learning.
:-)BBii!
-Micha
I believe that you brought this issue up before.
Why stop with Simchat Torah? Why not claim that we should revert to minhag Eretz Yisrael from the 12th century across the board?
I fail to understand why when the Jews returned to EY they adopted the yearly cycle of completing the reading of the Torah rather than going back to the original 3 or 3 and half year cycle.
Why would they have done that? Why should they have abandoned their
own minhagim and taken on those of an extinct community? Even if they
knew of that community's minhagim, which is doubtful, how were those
minhagim relevant to them?
Recife used to have a large Spanish-Portuguese kehillah, which was
completely destroyed when Portugal conquered it. Some of the refugees
ended up in New York and founded Shearith Israel. Is it your position
that centuries later, when Jews once again settled in Recife, they ought
to have turned themselves into S/P?!
[Email #2]
Add to the this fact that one is not supposed to dance on Shabbos and
Yom Tov. (I know that today there are many who are maikel, but
still this is the halacha.)
Those of us who are meikil believe that it is *not* the halacha.
Whether because we follow Tosfos that the gezera no longer applies,
or because we hold that "rikud" means jumping, and dances in which
one always has at least one foot on the floor were never banned in
the first place.
[Email #3]
But you do state your opinion when you reposted the email:
> I like the sentiment. Not sure about the actual suggestion.
Not true. Again, these were not my words, but were those of the person who sent me the email.
You sent them to the list, therefore they were your words. Anything
you send to the list is your words, whether you composed them yourself
or copied them from someone else. If you are quoting someone else,
it is up to you to say so.
And forwarding an article implies your endorsement, unless you
expressly say otherwise.
[Email #4]
The Jewish community of Recife was not "completely destroyed." The
Jews were allowed to leave and to take most of their possessions with them.
See my article
<http://personal.stevens.edu/~llevine/jp/Recife%20-%20The%20First%20Jewish%20Community%20In%20The%20New%20World.pdf>
"Recife - The First Jewish Community in the New World" The Jewish Press,
June 3, 2005, page 32. Glimpses into American Jewish History Part 3. (Also
available at
<http://www.ourjerusalem.com/history/story/history20050830.html>http://www.ourjerusalem.com/history/story/history20050830.html\)
YL
And this means it was not completely destroyed how?
To call your minyan a more genuine simcha when the Flatbush Jewish
area has between 50-100 more Shuls that do not follow your lead, is
difficult to gauge. How many people show up to your shul's main
minyan and how is it run?
On ST we have at least twice as many men as the Main Minyan on the
morning of ST. I have never davened at the shul's Main Minyan on ST
during the day, but from what I have been told things are not very
lively and attendance dwindles each year. They have a Kiddush after
davening. We do not have one, although this year since the Kiddush
for main minyan was in the Bais Medrash where we daven, they offered
us some cake and drinks. Almost no one partook. People went home.
We do not have our own davening at night on ST, the Main Minyan
does. However, they have to import some Lubavitchers on ST at night
to make it lively. The kids are given all sorts of nosh.
[Email #2]
And the Portuguese conquest was not violent?! The Jews were not
expelled under threat of death if they stayed?! That's not violence?!
: IMO ST has no place in EY. The Torah in EY was originally read
: according to a 3 or 3.5 year cycle...
I thought it was a 3 yr cycle from Shavuos to the third Shavu'os after.
According to one of the seforim that I have in some places it was 3
years and in others it was 3.5. And, not everyone read the same
portion of the Torah on a given Shabbos!
IIRC there is no mention of Shavuous as the starting or ending point.
The 3 yr cycle is one of the examples cited to show the EY origins of
Ashkenaz, actually. So you could make a stronger argument that Ashkenazim
have less reason to observe Simchas Torah than does EY's more mixed
populace.
Cited by whom and where? My understanding is that in Bavel they
leined the entire Torah yearly as we do now and it EY it was the 3 or
3.5 cycle. It has nothing to do with Ashkenazim as far as I know.
[Email #2]
I believe that you brought this issue up before.
Probably. It is something that has bothered me for some time.
Why stop with Simchat Torah? Why not claim that we should revert to
minhag Eretz Yisrael from the 12th century across the board?
Indeed, why wasn't this done in EY? Why bring "Golus" practices to
EY by not going back to the way things were done in EY originally?
YL
: >The 3 yr cycle is one of the examples cited to show the EY origins of
: >Ashkenaz, actually. So you could make a stronger argument that Ashkenazim
: >have less reason to observe Simchas Torah than does EY's more mixed
: >populace.
:
: Cited by whom and where? My understanding is that in Bavel they
: leined the entire Torah yearly as we do now and it EY it was the 3 or
: 3.5 cycle. It has nothing to do with Ashkenazim as far as I know.
Egypt too, according to R' Binyamin miTudela who visited in 1170.
And the Rambam mentions an alternate minhag of three years in Tehillah
13:1, also compiled between 1170 an 1180, when he was in Egypt. But he
considers the 1 yr minhag "haminhag hapashut" (as in nispasheit).
Once Ashkenaz started becoming a major community, most of them too read
in a 3 year cycle, as I described. And there was a qerovetz in Mussar
every Shabbbos that refered to the week's haftarah, which was also as per
the three year cycle. It suggests also what they were leining that week,
from which historians of halakhah surmized that Bereishis was on Shavuos.
Machzor Vitri (from before Rashi's passing, 1105 CE) mentions Simchas
Torah, Chasan Torah and Chasan Bereishis. So we're talking VERY early.
Prof Ta-Shma links the Ashkenazi 3 yr cycle to the EY origins of many
of Ashkenaz's pesaqim and minhagim. But it sounds from what you're
saying that the early Ashk version of the cycle was more rigid than
the original. I had simply not considered the possibility, and just
assumed they were identical.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Because history and the halachic process / development of minhag didn't stop in the 12th century.
Ben