Chalav Yisrael: Required or Recommended?

llevine · January 21, 2018, 11:01pm

Please listen to the talk at

YL

mberger · January 22, 2018, 12:00am

: Please listen to the talk at
: https://goo.gl/atKfcN

I didn't yet, but I do have a blog post on the subject of chalav yisrael
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/chalav-yisrael>\. First, a discplaimer, because
I'm about to cite R' Moshe and I don't want to leave a false impression:

   Colloquially, discussions of the permissibility of drinking USFDA milk
   tend to start with citing the Igeros Moshe, as though the norm of
   drinking it originated with Rav Moshe's (RMF) responsa on the subject.
   But this isn't quite fair. Rather, most American Jews were already
   drinking what he called chalav hacompanies (company milk, USFDA
   approved) well before RMF arrived in the US. They had rabbanim who had
   already ruled it was permissible, such as R' Dov Revel, R' Yisrael
   Avraham Abba Krieger, (among other greats of early 20^th century
   American Judaism whom time has forgotten because the huge waves of
   post-War immigrants to the US never met them) R' Breuer, R' Moshe
   Soloveitchik and his son R' JB Soloveitchik. In the early days of
   Lakewood they served regular milk and Breakstone cottage cheese. Yes,
   that stopped when CY became more readily available, but obviously the
   yeshiva wouldn't have served it had R' Aharon Kotler believed CY was
   mandatory. (They could have sent someone to a nearby farm -- Lakewood
   was near farmland back then.)

Then there were those who didn't permit ...

Now, for the relevant quote:

   Also, it's clear Rav Moshe's language shifted as chalav Yisrael (CY)
   became more available, in the earliest responsum treating CY as a
   stringency above the baseline (Igeros Moshe YD 1:47-49), the middle
   more equivocal (2:31,35) and the latest (4:5) more like not insisting
   on CY being a leniency. However, Rebbetzin Feinstein did not observe
   chalav yisrael, and it is well known in their community that Rav Dovid
   Feinstein to this day drinks "chalav hacompanies". So I wouldn't read
   that much into the change in language, if it didn't impact what he told
   his own family! In practice, he treated CY as a personal stringency,
   even to his last day.

Discussion of CY (the Peri Chadash vs the Chasam Sofer onward, emphasis on
AhS), elided.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

zev · January 22, 2018, 3:45am

You're starting one siman too late. Any survey of RMF's shita has to start with siman 46, where he expresses astonishment at the asker's expression "for those who are careful with stam milk that comes from nochrim" and explicitly writes that "all Ashkenazi Jews" pasken like the Chasam Sofer and not like the Radvaz and Pri Chodosh. So the baseline is that CY is an obligation, not a hiddur, but commercial milk is not included in the gezera, as he goes on to explain in the next three simanim.

larry62341 · January 22, 2018, 10:36am

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They had rabbanim who had
   already ruled it was permissible, such as R' Dov Revel, R' Yisrael
   Avraham Abba Krieger, (among other greats of early 20^th century
   American Judaism whom time has forgotten because the huge waves of
   post-War immigrants to the US never met them) R' Breuer, R' Moshe
   Soloveitchik and his son R' JB Soloveitchik.

What is your basis for asserting that Rav Breur=20
ruled that Chalav Stam was permissible?

Here is an excerpt from an article that I wrote=20
about Rabbi Aryeh Leib Malin that will appear in two weeks in the JP.

Reb Leib, Reb Moshe and Chalav Akum

After WW II was over some of the Mir students who=20
were in Shanghai came to America. They found=20
themselves living in a country were the level of=20
Jewish observance was often very low. =93This was=20
not a shock to the Mirrer talmidei chachamim, who=20
knew the scourge of this European =93Enlightenment=94=20
- inspired progressive Judaism that sought to=20
clothe non-Jewish ideologies in more-or-less=20
Jewish garb. By contrast, the Mirrer talmidim=20
held fast to the Tree of Life that was Torah through thick and thin.
=93Yet they thought they had found other grounds to=20
be shocked and concerned: In this environment of=20
hefkeirus (in the spirit of =91anything goes=92), the=20
Mirrers found that even the small Torah-true=20
Jewish community was drinking chalav akum (milk=20
not supervised by a Jew at the time of milking),=20
something that in Europe would have been totally=20
unacceptable. They made inquiries regarding the=20
situation and they were told, =91Our Rabbi, R=92=20
Moshe Feinstein, says this is permitted in America today.=92

=93The Mirrer scholars had not yet heard of the=20
chashuve R' Moshe Feinstein, and the renowned=20
Mashgiach, R=92 Yechezkel (Chatzkel) Levenstein,=20
delegated one of the outstanding Torah scholars=20
at the Mir, R=92 Leib Malin, to look into the=20
matter. He phoned R=92 Moshe, who was at a bungalow=20
colony, and a heated debate ensued, as R=92 Leib=20
would not accede to R=92 Moshe's point of view.

=93Finally, R=92 Moshe asked him, =91Have you heard of=20
R=92 Yisrael Zeev Gustman, the dayan of Vilna?=92
=91Yes, of course I have!=92 answered R' Leib, =91We=20
were chavrusas in Grodno before I went to the=20
Mir." And he added the usual adjunct of European=20
Jews in 5706 when speaking of a Jewish person=20
they had known before the war: =91Is he still=20
alive?!?=92 =91He is indeed alive,=92 replied R=92 Moshe,=20
=91and he is right here in the bungalow colony. Do you trust his opinion?=92

=93=91Certainly,=92 replied R=92 Leib, knowing that R=92=20
Gustman was also an admirer of R=92 Chatzkel.=20
=91Well, I have discussed this issue with him over=20
the past few weeks, and R=92 Gustman agrees that=20
the milk is kosher.=92 R=92 Moshe called R=92 Gustman=20
over to speak with R' Leib by phone, and the=20
great dayan explained R' Moshe's position: Under=20
the prevailing conditions in the United States=20
and since the milking met strict U.S.=20
regulations, the milk was permitted despite not=20
having Jewish supervision or milking. R=92 Leib=20
accepted the ruling, and the matter was settled.=94[i]

[i] Rav Gustman, by David Page, Mesorah Publications, 2017, pages 121 =96=
123.

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At 07:00 PM 1/21/2018, Micha Berger wrote: 
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">They had rabbanim who had 
   already ruled it was permissible, such as R' Dov Revel, R'
Yisrael 
   Avraham Abba Krieger, (among other greats of early 20^th
century 
   American Judaism whom time has forgotten because the huge
waves of 
   post-War immigrants to the US never met them) R' Breuer, R'
Moshe 
   Soloveitchik and his son R' JB
Soloveitchik.</blockquote> 
What is your basis for asserting that Rav Breur ruled that Chalav Stam
was permissible? 
Here is an excerpt from an article that I wrote about Rabbi Aryeh Leib
Malin that will appear in two weeks in the JP. 
 
<div align=3D"center">Reb Leib, Reb Moshe and Chalav Akum 
</div>
After WW II was over some of the Mir students who were in Shanghai came
to America.  They found themselves living in a country were the
level of Jewish observance was often very low. =93This was not a shock to
the Mirrer talmidei chachamim, who knew the scourge of this
European =93Enlightenment=94 - inspired progressive Judaism that sought to
clothe non-Jewish ideologies in more-or-less Jewish garb. By contrast,
the Mirrer talmidim held fast to the Tree of Life that was Torah through
thick and thin. 
=93Yet they thought they had found other grounds to be shocked and
concerned: In this environment of hefkeirus (in the spirit of
=91anything goes=92), the Mirrers found that even the small Torah-true Jewis=
h
community was drinking chalav akum (milk not supervised by a Jew
at the time of milking), something that in Europe would have been totally
unacceptable. They made inquiries regarding the situation and they were
told, =91Our Rabbi, R=92 Moshe Feinstein, says this is permitted in America
today.=92 
  
=93The Mirrer scholars had not yet heard of the chashuve R' Moshe
Feinstein, and the renowned Mashgiach, R=92 Yechezkel (Chatzkel)
Levenstein, delegated one of the outstanding Torah scholars at the Mir,
R=92 Leib Malin, to look into the matter. He phoned R=92 Moshe, who was at a
bungalow colony, and a heated debate ensued, as R=92 Leib would not accede
to R=92 Moshe's point of view. 
  
=93Finally, R=92 Moshe asked him, =91Have you heard of R=92 Yisrael Zeev Gus=
tman,
the dayan of Vilna?=92 
=91Yes, of course I have!=92 answered R' Leib, =91We were chavrusas i=
n
Grodno before I went to the Mir." And he added the usual adjunct of
European Jews in 5706 when speaking of a Jewish person they had known
before the war: =91Is he still alive?!?=92 =91He is indeed alive,=92 replied=
R=92
Moshe, =91and he is right here in the bungalow colony. Do you trust his
opinion?=92 
  
=93=91Certainly,=92 replied R=92 Leib, knowing that R=92 Gustman was also an
admirer of R=92 Chatzkel. =91Well, I have discussed this issue with him over
the past few weeks, and R=92 Gustman agrees that the milk is kosher.=92 R=92
Moshe called R=92 Gustman over to speak with R' Leib by phone, and the
great dayan explained R' Moshe's position: Under the prevailing
conditions in the United States and since the milking met strict U.S.
regulations, the milk was permitted despite not having Jewish supervision
or milking. R=92 Leib accepted the ruling, and the matter was
settled.=94<a name=3D"_ednref1"></a>[i] 
<div align=3D"center">  
</div>
 
<a name=3D"_edn1"></a>[i] Rav Gustman, by David Page, Mesorah
Publications, 2017,  pages 121 =96 123. 
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mberger · January 22, 2018, 2:40pm

: What is your basis for asserting that Rav Breur ruled that Chalav
: Stam was permissible?

Evidence is, R' Breuer (RMB) was in the "good chumerah" camp when it
came to chalav yisrael (CY).

While RMB made CY available in Manhattan, KAJ never was maqpid on CY as
a general norm. I was told by a number of products of KAJ, people who
are now yeshivish and maqpidim on CY themselves (which is why they're
living in Passaic), that this reflects R Breuer's own position.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

larry62341 · January 22, 2018, 4:38pm

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: What is your basis for asserting that Rav Breur ruled that Chalav
: Stam was permissible?

Evidence is, R' Breuer (RMB) was in the "good chumerah" camp when it
came to chalav yisrael (CY).

First of all, how does Rabbi Dr. Yosef Breuer,=20
ZT"L, come to be abbreviated as RMB?

I do not believe that this is accurate.

From https://goo.gl/ur8iNi

TO THE EDITOR: (of Hamodia Magazine)

In the article =93Kashrus Thrives in America=94 in the
Parashas Re=92eh/August 27 issue, Yitzchok Cohen writes: =93In those
years there were relatively few American Jews who were stringent
in their kashrus observance, and there were hardly any farms that
were willing to commit themselves to providing chalav Yisrael. After
great effort, the Tzehlimer Rav succeeded in producing the first
line of chalav Yisrael products in America. The line went by the
name =91Kahal,=92 and all the strictly observant Jews in America knew
that this was the only brand that was 100-percent kosher. The
Kahal company later became the J&J Dairy Co.=94
There is something more to the story of the production of chalav
Yisrael in America. In 1882 Sholom Yitzchok (Isaac) and (Shifra)
Rivka Raskas immigrated from Kovno, Lithuania, to St. Louis to join
members of Mrs. Raskas=92s family, the Sarasohns. They lived about
ten blocks from the Mississippi River. Isaac
started selling milk. After the turn of the
century, the family moved to 1313 North
Newstead, which at that time was still a
semi-rural area on the western fringe of St.
Louis, and began a small dairy that
eventually developed into a large company.
The Raskases were sincerely committed
Orthodox Jews. Pictures of their parents
show that they both came from learned
Litvishe families. They produced what was
probably the first commercially available
chalav Yisrael in America, long before the Tzehlimer Rav arrived
here.

Furthermore, one should not overlook the role that Harav Dr.
Yosef Breuer played in the production and distribution of chalav
Yisrael. In Rav Breuer: His Life and Legacy, we are told, =93Rav
Breuer was in the forefront of the efforts to make chalav Yisrael
milk products commercially available in the United States =97 a
policy that was almost unheard of in America in the early 1940s.=94
A footnote to this statement adds, =93The first commercially available
chalav Yisrael in America, Balsam Farms, under the supervision of
the Tzehlimer Rav, began production in the late 1930s. This milk
was not available in Manhattan due to lack of demand. In 1940
Rav Breuer arranged for it to be sold in Washington Heights, and
when Balsam could not keep up with the demand, made
arrangements for supervision of what became known as Kahal
Dairies. Later, J&J milk came under the Kehillah=92s [KAJ=92s]
supervision.=94
Thus, the Tzehlimer Rav first supervised Balsam milk, not Kahal
milk, which came later. Also, it is clear from the information about
the Raskas dairy that Balsam Farms was not the first commercially
available chalav Yisrael in America.
PROFESSOR YITZCHOK LEVINE

While RMB made CY available in Manhattan, KAJ never was maqpid on CY as
a general norm. I was told by a number of products of KAJ, people who
are now yeshivish and maqpidim on CY themselves (which is why they're
living in Passaic), that this reflects R Breuer's own position.

As you can see from my letter to the editor of=20
the Hamodia Magazine, this does not seem to be accurate.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Micha Berger We look forward to the time
micha@aishdas.org when the power to love
http://www.aishdas.org will replace the love of power.
Fax: (270) 514-1507 - William Ewart Gladstone

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At 09:40 AM 1/22/2018, Micha Berger wrote: 
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at
05:36:37AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote: 
: What is your basis for asserting that Rav Breur ruled that Chalav 
: Stam was permissible? 
Evidence is, R' Breuer (RMB) was in the "good chumerah" camp
when it 
came to chalav yisrael (CY).</blockquote> 
First of all, how does Rabbi Dr. Yosef Breuer, ZT"L,  come to
be abbreviated as RMB? 
I do not believe that this is accurate. 
From
<a href=3D"https://goo.gl/ur8iNi" eudora=3D"autourl">https://goo.gl/ur8iNi</=

TO THE EDITOR: (of Hamodia Magazine) 
In the article =93Kashrus Thrives in America=94 in the 
Parashas Re=92eh/August 27 issue, Yitzchok Cohen writes: =93In
those 
years there were relatively few American Jews who were stringent 
in their kashrus observance, and there were hardly any farms that 
were willing to commit themselves to providing chalav Yisrael.
After 
great effort, the Tzehlimer Rav succeeded in producing the first 
line of chalav Yisrael products in America. The line went by
the 
name =91Kahal,=92 and all the strictly observant Jews in America knew 
that this was the only brand that was 100-percent kosher. The 
Kahal company later became the J&J Dairy Co.=94 
There is something more to the story of the production of chalav 
Yisrael in America. In 1882 Sholom Yitzchok (Isaac) and (Shifra) 
Rivka Raskas immigrated from Kovno, Lithuania, to St. Louis to join 
members of Mrs. Raskas=92s family, the Sarasohns. They lived about 
ten blocks from the Mississippi River. Isaac 
started selling milk. After the turn of the 
century, the family moved to 1313 North 
Newstead, which at that time was still a 
semi-rural area on the western fringe of St. 
Louis, and began a small dairy that 
eventually developed into a large company. 
The Raskases were sincerely committed 
Orthodox Jews. Pictures of their parents 
show that they both came from learned 
Litvishe families. They produced what was 
probably the first commercially available 
chalav Yisrael in America, long before the Tzehlimer Rav
arrived 
here. 
Furthermore, one should not overlook the role that Harav Dr. 
Yosef Breuer played in the production and distribution of chalav 
Yisrael. In Rav Breuer: His Life and Legacy, we are told,
=93Rav 
Breuer was in the forefront of the efforts to make chalav Yisrael 
milk products commercially available in the United States =97 a 
policy that was almost unheard of in America in the early 1940s.=94 
A footnote to this statement adds, =93The first commercially available 
chalav Yisrael in America, Balsam Farms, under the supervision
of 
the Tzehlimer Rav, began production in the late 1930s. This milk 
was not available in Manhattan due to lack of demand. In 1940 
Rav Breuer arranged for it to be sold in Washington Heights, and 
when Balsam could not keep up with the demand, made 
arrangements for supervision of what became known as Kahal 
Dairies. Later, J&J milk came under the Kehillah=92s [KAJ=92s] 
supervision.=94 
Thus, the Tzehlimer Rav first supervised Balsam milk, not Kahal 
milk, which came later. Also, it is clear from the information about 
the Raskas dairy that Balsam Farms was not the first commercially 
available chalav Yisrael in America. 
PROFESSOR YITZCHOK LEVINE 
 
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">While R=
MB
made CY available in Manhattan, KAJ never was maqpid on CY as 
a general norm. I was told by a number of products of KAJ, people
who 
are now yeshivish and maqpidim on CY themselves (which is why
they're 
living in Passaic), that this reflects R Breuer's own
position.</blockquote> 
As you can see from my letter to the editor of the Hamodia
Magazine,  this does not seem to be accurate. 
 
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">Tir'u=
baTov! 
-Micha 
-- 
Micha
Berger           &nbs=
p;
We look forward to the time 
micha@aishdas.org        when the
power to love 
<a href=3D"http://www.aishdas.org=A0=A0/" eudora=3D"autourl">
http://www.aishdas.org  </a> will replace the love of power. 
Fax: (270)
514-1507           &n=
bsp;   
- William Ewart Gladstone</blockquote></body>
 
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mberger · January 22, 2018, 5:02pm

There is nothing in your self quote that shows that KAJ held that CY
was iqar hadin. And if you ask anyone from that community, there is no
norm of treating it as such.

If R' Breuer wanted it to be available, it was for people like himself
who were machmirim. Not because he held that CY was mandatory in the
American metzi'us. Or else his community would have been keeping CY
before their grandchildren sold out to yeshivishness.

Repeating the story again doesn't change the substance of my argument.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha