Dancing Around A Bonfire & Concern of Foreign Practices: Rav Wosner's Responsum

Avodah
1

: >I don't know the origin.
:
: The origin is with the shift in the significance of the day from the
: end of mourning for R Akiva's students to the celebration of
: Rashbi's happy day, the day of his "wedding", when he revealed the
: Idra Zuta and returned to his Maker.

That's is the taam behind the post-change practice. It does not explain
how or when the older minhag was changed.

And, the first mention that the Peri Eitz Chaim's "yom simchas Rashbi"
is a day for our simchah is Chamdas Yamim. With the problem that raises.

You also insert your own explanation of "yom simchas Rashbi". It could,
after all, still be his yahrzeit, or as per your own rebbe (RMMS,
in a letter to R' Zevin; unforunately I don't have a mar'eh maqom)
that it was the day R' Aqiva started over with 5 talmidim -- thus,
Rashbi's simchah as one of those 5.

...
: The first edition of SA Harav, and especially Hilchos Pesach, which
: is the first section he wrote, follows nigleh, not nistar, and
: relies heavily on the Magen Avraham...

I do not know if celebrations the night of Lag baOmer existed yet even.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

2

: >I don't know the origin.
:
: The origin is with the shift in the significance of the day from the
: end of mourning for R Akiva's students to the celebration of
: Rashbi's happy day, the day of his "wedding", when he revealed the
: Idra Zuta and returned to his Maker.

That's is the taam behind the post-change practice. It does not explain
how or when the older minhag was changed.

It follows that the minhag changed when the significance of the day changed. In other words, the minhogim of the day when R Akiva's talmidim stopped dying did not change, but on top of them came a whole new layer of minhogim for the new holiday that occupies the same day on the calendar.

For a similar example, the significance of 3 Tammuz in Lubavitch changed dramatically in 5754. The earlier significance of that day and whatever practices it had did not go away, e.g. those who did not say tachanun on 3 Tammuz before 5754 still don't say it, while those who did still do, but the new significance, and the host of practices that came with it, overwhelmed the earlier significance and observance.

And, the first mention that the Peri Eitz Chaim's "yom simchas Rashbi"
is a day for our simchah is Chamdas Yamim. With the problem that raises.

Doesn't the Idra Zuta say that Rashbi asked for his hilula to be celebrated rather than mourned?

You also insert your own explanation of "yom simchas Rashbi". It could,
after all, still be his yahrzeit, or as per your own rebbe (RMMS,
in a letter to R' Zevin; unforunately I don't have a mar'eh maqom)
that it was the day R' Aqiva started over with 5 talmidim -- thus,
Rashbi's simchah as one of those 5.

Whether it's the correct explanation of the Pri Etz Chaim or not, it is the one held by the people actually doing the celebrating, and thus fully explains their practices.

...
: The first edition of SA Harav, and especially Hilchos Pesach, which
: is the first section he wrote, follows nigleh, not nistar, and
: relies heavily on the Magen Avraham...

I do not know if celebrations the night of Lag baOmer existed yet even.

They certainly existed in the next generation, so there's no reason to suppose they didn't exist in his day.

3

PS: Indirect evidence that in the AR's day the night of Lag Baomer was already considered part of the simcha is that in his siddur (as opposed to his SA) he wrote that tachanun is not said at mincha of erev Lag Baomer.

4

: But in any case the question was about how Sefardim go at night, and
: the answer is the same way they go by day.

The question is: How does anyone go at night, as the minhag hage'onim
(? early rishonim?) includes Lag la-/baOmer night according to both
Ashk and Seph?

Yes, if the party happened to be during the day, I would have the same
question WRT Sepharadim (only). So how does pointing out that fact help
me any in answering it?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

5

And the answer is that (a) Yom Simchas Rashbi, which was unknown in the days of the Ge'onim and Rishonim, begins at nightfall. Thus their words, which are about the day the plague stopped, aren't applicable to the new holiday, so those who drop aveilus for it do so from nightfall. (b) The Meron celebrations, which the question was about, don't violate the sefira observances anyway.

6

:> The question is: How does anyone go at night, as the minhag hage'onim
:> (? early rishonim?) includes Lag la-/baOmer night according to both
:> Ashk and Seph?

: And the answer is that (a) Yom Simchas Rashbi, which was unknown in
: the days of the Ge'onim and Rishonim, begins at nightfall. Thus
: their words, which are about the day the plague stopped, aren't
: applicable to the new holiday, so those who drop aveilus for it do
: so from nightfall...

You are okay with uprooting what was then a 700+ year old minhag,
nispahseit bekhol Yisrael, codified in the SA, in light of new
information? That's exactly the process question I'm asking about.

If we were talking halakhah, I do not think we could overturn a
comparably accepted accepted pesaq because someone learned something
aggadic.

But moving on to the hashkafic implications of your statement: Never mind
the need to believe that this new information is part of a "continuous
revelation" model of matan Torah; I already knew Chassidim differ from
what I was raised to believe on that.

I wonder. According to RMMS, Yom Simchas Rashbi is a logical consequence
of the end of the plague. R' Aqiva couldn't teach the whole generation
anymore; so he started teaching 5 new leaders, so that they can take
over. One of whom was R' Shimon. So, what was revealed to the Ari (in
this understanding of how the Ari got his Qabbalah) that geonim and
rishonim couldn't have known about?

:-)BBii!
-Micha

7

:> The question is: How does anyone go at night, as the minhag hage'onim
:> (? early rishonim?) includes Lag la-/baOmer night according to both
:> Ashk and Seph?

: And the answer is that (a) Yom Simchas Rashbi, which was unknown in
: the days of the Ge'onim and Rishonim, begins at nightfall. Thus
: their words, which are about the day the plague stopped, aren't
: applicable to the new holiday, so those who drop aveilus for it do
: so from nightfall...

You are okay with uprooting what was then a 700+ year old minhag,
nispahseit bekhol Yisrael, codified in the SA, in light of new
information? That's exactly the process question I'm asking about.

Nothing is being uprooted. Something new has come. Just as when a local "Purim" or lehavdil a fast is declared.

If we were talking halakhah, I do not think we could overturn a
comparably accepted accepted pesaq because someone learned something
aggadic.

But moving on to the hashkafic implications of your statement: Never mind
the need to believe that this new information is part of a "continuous
revelation" model of matan Torah; I already knew Chassidim differ from
what I was raised to believe on that.

I wonder. According to RMMS, Yom Simchas Rashbi is a logical consequence
of the end of the plague. R' Aqiva couldn't teach the whole generation
anymore; so he started teaching 5 new leaders, so that they can take
over. One of whom was R' Shimon. So, what was revealed to the Ari (in
this understanding of how the Ari got his Qabbalah) that geonim and
rishonim couldn't have known about?

They didn't know about the Zohar, let alone the Idra Zuta and R Shimon's request that people rejoice at his "hilula".