Fish and Meat eating

Avodah
1

I’m hoping somebody can help me out with this. We’re looking into the question of eating fish and meat together. The Tur in o”c states that his father, the Rosh, would wash between eating meat and fish.
טור אורח חיים הלכות בציעת הפת, סעודה, וברכת המזון סימן קעג
וא"א הרא"ש ז"ל היה רגיל ליטול ידיו בין בשר לדגים
In y”d he states that one should not eat meat and fish together.
טור יורה דעה הלכות מאכלי עובדי כוכבים סימן קטז
וצריך ליזהר שלא לאכול בשר ודג ביחד שקשה לצרעת
The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently) seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef
בית יוסף אורח חיים סימן קעג
ב ומ"ש רבינו ואדוני אבי ז"ל היה רגיל ליטול ידיו בין בשר לדגים דחמירא סכנתא מאיסורא. הכל בו (סי' כג טז.) כתב שגם הר"ם נ"ע היה נוהג כן מזה הטעם ולא פירש מהיכן למד הר"ם כן ונראה שלמדו כן מדגרסינן בפרק כיצד צולין (פסחים עו:) ההיא ביניתא דאיטויא בהדי בישרא אסרה רבא מפרזקיא למיכלה בכותחא מר בר רב אשי אמר אפילו במילחא נמי אסורה משום דקשה לריחא ולדבר אחר. ופירש רש"י דאיטויא בהדי בשרא. בתנור אחד: לדבר אחר. צרעת:
The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo refers to הר"ם-who is that? (the Rambam doesn’t mention it)
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2

In y"d [the Tur] states that one should not eat meat and fish together.
[Tur YD 116]

... because it is "qasheh latzara'as".

And I think the tzara'as connection is key.

Because now you have both chamira saqanta mei'issura AND the saqana has a
spiritual element.

The source of both statements (please disagree if you think differently)
seems to be the Talmud in Pesachim quoted by the beit Yosef
[BY OC 173]

Pesachim 76b.

Which says the reason is "qashyeh lericha uldavar acheir", where the
"davar acheir" is taken by Rashi to be a reference to tzara'as.

The gemara only talks about cooking them together in the same oven. Since
this is an issue of danger, any understanding of how the prohibition
got extended so far and did anybody else but the Rosh do it? (the kolbo
refers to הר"ם-who is that? (the Rambam doesn't mention it)

https://www.sefaria.org/Kol_Bo.23.38

Usually, the Kol Bo's HR"M or HaRam beMaza"l (cute play on "haRambam
za"l") is indeed the Rambam. And his next line quotes the Raavad about
a teshuvos haqadmonim that says tht macyim acharonim is only for cleanliness
and thus has no berakhah. Thus lumping together haRa"m's hand washing
with mayim acharonim as a cleanliness thing. But in either case, going
from Ra"M to Raavad does at least weakly imply we mean *that* Ra"M.

So yes, I believe he is repeating a maaseh shehayah that the Rambam washed
his hands beween meat and milk, even though much is said about there
being no mention of meat-and-fish problems in the Yad. But the Rambam
(Rotzeiach 11:5) has harsh words for people who ignore the gemara's
warnings of saqanos. He only mentions mashqim shenisgalu. But it could
well be that the Rambam only needed the one example, because he felt
that the list of dangers is a metzzi'us, not individual dinim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

3

It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together.

4

It's a simple kal vachomer. If simply baking them in the same oven can
cause problems, how much more so actually eating them together.

5

I agree with Joel, not so simple.

A few thoughts:

1. Rambam: Many people point out that the Rambam never mentions this
prohibition – seems to be in the category of Talmudic medicine which we
are not meant to follow.

2. Speculation: maybe the danger of eating fish and meat together is
because fish have small bones that may be overlooked when eating meat
(which
only have big bones). This could lead to inadvertently swallowing small
fish bones, which could lead to choking.

3. Source: the actual Gemara states:

Talmud Bavli Pesachim 76b — "A fish that was roasted with meat - Rava from
Parzika forbade eating it with milk [because the fish became fleishig].
Mar bar Rav Ashi said, even to eat it by itself is forbidden because it
bad for odor and davar acher."

Note that he’s not saying that the combination with meat is dangerous,
rather fish roasted with meat. (But the Shulchan Aruch for some reason
forbids any fish with any meat. It seems to me the clear intent of the
Gemara is to say don’t eat them when they were roasted together. Also, it
is quite interesting to me that Mar bar Rav Ashi puts the bad odor first -
if it’s really that dangerous, wouldn’t he mention it first? And if it was
so dangerous, why would no one before Mar bar Rav
Ashi (who is literally the last chronological voice in the Gemara) mention
it, and as I said, even he mentions it after odor?

4. Roasting/frying can produce acrylamides, a carcinogen:
https://www.fda.gov/food/chemicals/acrylamide-questions-and-answers
https://www.cancer.org/cancer/cancer-causes/acrylamide.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3756514/

While the above sources say that meat and fish produce less acrylamides,
this study finds that fattier meat produces more:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3931869/

5. Unknown: It appears to have never been tested whether or not roasting
meat and fish together significantly increases acrylamides or some other
harmful compound. How about increased risk for eczema? I’d be particularly
interested in the latter as it appears to be influenced by diet (affects
people more often who have food allergies), and since it is relatively
rare but can be unseemly, might explain why Mar bar Rav Ashi mentions it
only after bad odor, and why the Gemara seems to equate it with leprosy
(“davar acher”) which seems to be a general term for any leprosy-like
condition.

6. In conclusion, to me it sounds like a minor secondary worry from one
authority that one might speculate is allergy-related, that the Rambam
ignores but for some reason Rav Yoseph Caro decided to codify as an
outright prohibition, perhaps due to the way the Gemara concludes the
sugyia with it. But he does qualify his prohibition – it’s due to danger;
therefore, now that we are not worried about the danger, it seems to me we
don’t have to worry about the danger, and our separation should be
understood – and taught – as merely customary.

Alexander Seinfeld

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