I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. My understanding is that you get
the 10th dibur by correctly putting a sof pasuk after "mibeis avadim".
Then the segalta (on “ta’avdeim”) is the first melech of the second pasuk
(a segalta is supposed to be the first melech of a pasuk, right?). My
understanding is that Teimoni Chumashim show it that way (although the only
one I have has both taam elyon and taam tachton together).
(Or was that one of your hints?)
R' Rich Wolpoe asked:
Without resorting to chazal or l'havdil Gentile Scholars...
How does the Masoretic Text map ...
Are you suggesting that "Masoretic text" is not included in "chazal"?
Akiva Miller
Are you suggesting that "Masoretic text" is not included in "chazal"?Akiva Miller>>Not necessarilyBut I'd prefer not to go there.RRW
Not where I was goingBut very interesting RRW
Thank you, Sholom.
But it is not only the Teimanim. Rabbi Mordechai Breuer concluded that that was the original in all the oldest mss., and so he prints the Ta‘am ha‘Elyon that way in all the editions of the Chumash and T'Nakh that he put out, including the Torat Chaim edition of the Chumash published by Mosad haRav Kook.
Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union
Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels@ou.org
But it is not only the Teimanim. Rabbi Mordechai Breuer concluded
that that was the original in all the oldest mss., and so he prints
the Ta‘am ha‘Elyon that way in all the editions of the Chumash and
T'Nakh that he put out, including the Torat Chaim edition of the
Chumash published by Mosad haRav Kook.
More evidence that such a reading did exist is that the future meshumad who did the pasuk count at the end of each parsha wrote that Yisro has 72 pesukim, rather than the 75 that it has in Taam Tachton. The only way to get 72 is for the Aseres Hadibros to contain 10 pesukim, not 9.
And yet our tradition is that the Taam Elyon deliberately combines the first two dibros together, to show that they were heard directly from Hashem. Surely that is more authoritative (at least for us) than whatever anyone has found in some manuscripts. Perhaps the authors of those manuscripts were wrong, and the keepers of the authentic tradition rejected them for it. It's like trying to show the correct text from things found in a geniza -- perhaps they were put in the geniza precisely because they were pasul!
That is NOT the tradition of all Jews, and stems from a mistake, as is clear from the mss. and from the earliest printings.
Not all current practices in shuls are based on Jewish tradition. I will remind you of the practice of upsheren, which is historically documented was never known in Europe, even by the Alter rebbe, until a chosid who had emigrated to Israel in the 19th Century asked in a letter why the chasidim in Chutz Laaretz do not know about this custom. And yet Lubavitsch chasidim believe that the Be'ShT gave an opsheren to the alter rebbe, and just try to tell any of them that that is not true.
Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
I posted this version elsewhere and I omitted the term Chazal in anticipation of Akiva Miller's questions:Using the Masoretic text,(Meaning without using Talmud or Midrash)How do we compute the10 Dibros?For Example do we compute1. Parshah breaks?2. End of verses demarcated by a sof pasuk or a siluk?3. Other?RRW
I received a reply from But I was asked to not use attributions pending permission"I heard from Rabbi X once that based on the parsha breaks the 10 dibrot might be:1. Anochi2. Lo tisa3. shabbat4. kibud av5. murder6. adultery7. kidnapping8, lo taaneh9. lo tachmod10. lo tachmod."This aligns with my own understanding of parshah breaks.RRW
From sofie pasuk or sillukim I get 9 in our common editions of ta'am elyon.Neither the parshah breaks which has sachmod as 2 in yisro or lo sachmod lo sisaveh in vo'eschanan match our common understandingRRW
I will remind you of the practice of upsheren, which is historically documented was never known in Europe, even by the Alter rebbe, until a chosid who had emigrated to Israel in the 19th Century asked in a letter why the chasidim in Chutz Laaretz do not know about this custom.
This is not true.
And yet Lubavitsch chasidim believe that the Be'ShT gave an opsheren
> to the alter rebbe, and just try to tell any of them that that is not > true.
Because it is true, and is proof positive that your assertion is wrong.
My understanding is that you get the 10th dibur by correctly putting a sof pasuk
after "mibeis avadim". Yes I withdraw my earlier comment In the sof passuk method, this resolves the missing pieceR Wolf Heidenheim says AIUH to read the 1ST passuk with Taam Tachton before switching to Taam Elyon. That completes 10 sofei passuk.But afaik even RWH never suggests that Taam Elyon solves this internallyRRW
You can also claim that the noon is made of green cheese and insist it is true.
It will have the same validity
This is just a chutzpah of you. How could you possibly know such a thing? The previous LR said it happened, and he was in a position to know, being in receipt of the family history handed down through the generations; how are you in a position to know the opposite?
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=39166&pgnum=227
https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=39166&pgnum=228