Is it a proper warning, or is it lashon hara?

akivagmiller · September 6, 2021, 12:32am

.
Someone wrote the following: (I will not say who wrote it, nor how they
know me. It's even possible that I'm the one who wrote it.)

A rabbi who I know, and who is involved on the highest level
with the kashrus for a very large organization, wrote to me
the following. He said that he had been in meat plants in [a
certain area] and elsewhere, while shechita was done under
supervision of [a certain hechsher]. He said, "That hechsher
does not really care if the meat is kosher or not."

I'd like to hear from other people. What is your opinion? Does the above
paragraph constitute a fair and proper warning for people to avoid that
hechsher, or is it lashon hara? Or might you describe it in some other
manner?

Thanks in advance,
Akiva Miller

larry62341 · September 9, 2021, 3:24pm

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.
Someone wrote the following: (I will not say who wrote it, nor how they
know me. It's even possible that I'm the one who wrote it.)

> A rabbi who I know, and who is involved on the highest level
> with the kashrus for a very large organization, wrote to me
> the following. He said that he had been in meat plants in [a
> certain area] and elsewhere, while shechita was done under
> supervision of [a certain hechsher]. He said, "That hechsher
> does not really care if the meat is kosher or not."

I'd like to hear from other people. What is your opinion? Does the above
paragraph constitute a fair and proper warning for people to avoid that
hechsher, or is it lashon hara? Or might you describe it in some other
manner?

The first issue to deal with is "Do people thank=20
that all hashgachas are equally reliable?" I=20
think not. For example, there is a brand of=20
delicatessen sold nationally that is not glatt=20
that, as far as I know, no one who is strictly=20
orthodox will use. People feel that the=20
hashgacha is not reliable. Is this loshon=20
hara? I think not. It is merely stating what=20
most Orthodox Jews consider to be the truth.

On the other hand, many people living in Brooklyn=20
will buy any product sold in the "kosher=20
supermarkets" without paying attention to whose=20
hashgacha the product has. Some are careful to=20
buy products only under certain hashgachas no matter where they are sold.

Many Chassidim will not buy a product that is=20
only under the OU. They will insist on a heimishe=20
hashgacha. "The OU is not good enough," they assert. Is this loshon hara?

See Understanding the Reliability of Kosher Agencies at

https://www.crcweb.org/understanding_reliab.php?fbclid=3DIwAR0OR_1r_o7qyhk7L=
3bmntRjnnBJWzLHOLlLTd4qryYPJlhpTOi3SXSwTmE

From there

In order to further clarify this sensitive=20
subject, the cRc has categorized the kosher=20
agencies into three groups. The first two groups=20
are easily explained=ADrecommended and not=20
recommended. The third group is known as a=20
=93detail=94 agency. This agency=92s products are=20
accepted on conditions, and they are investigated=20
on a case-by-case basis to determine if each final product is acceptable.

Is the fact that some kashrus agencies are not=20
recommended some sort of indirect loshon hara? I think not.

Some shuls in Brooklyn will allow only certain=20
caterers in their shuls. Is that fact that those=20
caterers not allowed in their shuls some sort of=20
indirect loshon hara? I think not.

Kashrus is a big business and the opportunity to=20
earn money is always tempting. Sadly, some=20
rabbis are more concerned about the money end=20
than the kashrus end, and the result is=20
unreliable supervision. How is the public to=20
know about these cases unless they are=20
publicized? Making such information public is,=20
IMO, not loshon hara, but a public service.

YL

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<body>
At 06:44 AM 9/9/2021, R Akiva Miller wrote: 
<blockquote type=3Dcite class=3Dcite cite=3D"">. 
Someone wrote the following: (I will not say who wrote it, nor how
they 
know me. It's even possible that I'm the one who wrote it.) 
> A rabbi who I know, and who is involved on the highest level 
> with the kashrus for a very large organization, wrote to me 
> the following. He said that he had been in meat plants in [a 
> certain area] and elsewhere, while shechita was done under 
> supervision of [a certain hechsher]. He said, "That
hechsher 
> does not really care if the meat is kosher or not." 
I'd like to hear from other people. What is your opinion? Does the
above 
paragraph constitute a fair and proper warning for people to avoid
that 
hechsher, or is it lashon hara? Or might you describe it in some
other 
manner? 
</blockquote>The first issue to deal with is "Do people thank that
all hashgachas are equally reliable?"  I think not. For
example,  there is a brand of delicatessen sold nationally that is
not glatt that, as far as I know, no one who is strictly orthodox will
use.  People feel that the hashgacha is not reliable. Is this loshon
hara?  I think not.  It is merely stating what most Orthodox
Jews consider to be the truth. 
On the other hand, many people living in Brooklyn will buy any product
sold in the "kosher supermarkets"   without paying
attention to whose hashgacha the product has.  Some are careful to
buy products only under certain hashgachas no matter where they are
sold. 
Many Chassidim will not buy a product that is only under the OU. They
will insist on a heimishe hashgacha. "The OU is not good
enough," they assert. Is this loshon hara? 
See Understanding the Reliability of Kosher Agencies at 
<a=
href=3D"https://www.crcweb.org/understanding_reliab.php?fbclid=3DIwAR0OR_1r=
_o7qyhk7L3bmntRjnnBJWzLHOLlLTd4qryYPJlhpTOi3SXSwTmE" eudora=3D"autourl">
https://www.crcweb.org/understanding_reliab.php?fbclid=3DIwAR0OR_1r_o7qyhk7L=
3bmntRjnnBJWzLHOLlLTd4qryYPJlhpTOi3SXSwTmE</a>
 
From there 
In order to further clarify this sensitive subject, the cRc has
categorized the kosher agencies into three groups. The first two groups
are easily explained=ADrecommended and not recommended. The third
group is known as a =93detail=94 agency. This agency=92s produ=
cts
are accepted on conditions, and they are investigated on a case-by-case
basis to determine if each final product is acceptable. 
Is the fact that some kashrus agencies are not recommended some sort of
indirect  loshon hara?  I think not. 
Some shuls in Brooklyn will allow only certain caterers in their
shuls.  Is that fact that those caterers not allowed in their shuls
some sort of indirect loshon hara?  I think not. 
Kashrus is a big business and the opportunity to earn money is always
tempting.  Sadly, some rabbis are more concerned about the money end
than the kashrus end, and the result is unreliable
supervision.   How is the public to know about these cases
unless they are publicized?   Making such information public
is, IMO, not loshon hara, but a public service. 
YL 
 
</body>
 
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jkaplan · September 9, 2021, 4:39pm

RAM posted the following and asked our opinion about his post as set forth in the subject:

“Someone wrote the following: (I will not say who wrote it, nor how they
know me. It's even possible that I'm the one who wrote it.)

A rabbi who I know, and who is involved on the highest level
with the kashrus for a very large organization, wrote to me
the following. He said that he had been in meat plants in [a
certain area] and elsewhere, while shechita was done under
supervision of [a certain hechsher]. He said, "That hechsher
does not really care if the meat is kosher or not."

I would need more information to venture an opinion. Was this information solicited and if so what was asked? Or was it unsolicited? How well does the recipient know the sender? What was the context in which it was sent? And were any follow-up questions asked and — very important — answered? That’s fir starters.

Joseph

cantorwolberg · September 14, 2021, 4:16pm

He said, "That hechsher
does not really care if the meat is kosher or not."

Making a statement like that with no evidence, proof, documentation or anything else is wrong.
Anyone can make any accusation, but we have a system where there must be proof.
I think it is wrong to make an unsubstantiated claim.

larry62341 · September 20, 2021, 1:25pm

The person who made this statement works for a national US kashrus organization and has been in many of the slaughter houses when the hechsher in question slaughters and has seen first hand what goes on. His claim is well substantiated by his personal observations.

YL