I am curious if anyone has written about a common practice.
We assume that *Kaddish* is a *Devar she-Bikdusha* and requires a *minyan*
to be recited.
We require separate seating for a *Devar she-Bikdusha.*
In many circles it is not uncommon to have a *siyyum* with a *kaddish *at
a Bar Mitzvah or a Dinner even when there is mixed seating.
Does anyone explicitly discuss this practice and permit it?
Yonatan Kaganoff
: We require separate seating for a *Devar she-Bikdusha.*
This is news to me. Do those who say that zimmun with a minyan is
a davar shebiqdushah (BY OC 199 "umah shekasav", MB s"q 15) require
separate seating at my shabbos table?
The AhS (200:6) refers to zimun with 10 as "shekhinta sharia", but
I didn't see him mention minyan or davar shebiqdushah.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
We assume that *Kaddish* is a *Devar she-Bikdusha* and requires a *minyan*
to be recited.
We require separate seating for a *Devar she-Bikdusha.*
In many circles it is not uncommon to have a *siyyum* with a *kaddish *at
a Bar Mitzvah or a Dinner even when there is mixed seating.
Does anyone explicitly discuss this practice and permit it?
Yonatan Kaganoff
You see something similar when people make an ad hoc minyan at a wedding
(or an airport lounge). They don't put up a mechitza. Is this situation
explicitly discussed in the halachic literature? It must be. Maybe what
applies to one also applies to the other.
--Toby Katz
t613k@aol.com
..
Yonatan Kaganoff
You see something similar when people make an ad hoc minyan at a wedding (or an airport lounge). They don't put up a mechitza. Is this situation explicitly discussed in the halachic literature? It must be. Maybe what applies to one also applies to the other.
--Toby Katz
t613k@aol.com<mailto:t613k@aol.com>
..
: From: Kaganoff via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>
:> We assume that Kaddish is a Devar she-Bikdusha and requires a minyan
:> to be recited.
:> We require separate seating for a Devar she-Bikdusha.
: You see something similar when people make an ad hoc minyan at a wedding
: (or an airport lounge). They don't put up a mechitza...
Slight topic change. You can have separate seating (or locations in general)
without a mechitzah.
I believe that minyanim were held at the kotel even when the Ottomans didn't
let us put up a mechitzah by separating the genders even without one. I
see R YH Henkin (Responsa on Contemporary Jewish Women's Issues, pg 124
<https://books.google.com/books?id=1QAZVzTJz2MC&lpg=PA124&pg=PA124>\)
rejects the hava amina that mechitzah is only for an established shul. He
requires a mechitzah, not just separate seating at a temporary location
for davening. While a minyan is there, the laws of mara miqdash apply. I
do not whether he would advised the yishuv hayashan not to daven at
the kotel.
Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
Following up upon my earlier post about the permissibility of saying
the *kaddish
*of a *siyyum* at a dinner with mixed seating.
I spoke to RIETS RY last week and he said that we only require *mechitzah* in
a *Shul*, based upon the *Gemara* in *Succos*, which requires separate
seating at a *shul*.
This is clear from the original textual source of mechitzah, the Gemara in
the fifth perek of Succos, that the basis of *mechitzah* is the *Bais
ha-Mikdash*. As our Synagogues are modeled after the Bais ha-Mikdash, we
apply the principals underlying the *Gemara* in Succos to our Shuls.
(Similarly, *Tosfos* justifies the practice of bringing children to Shul
using the model of *Hakhel*.) As the Kaddish for a Siyyum has nothing do to
with a Shul there is no need for separate seating.
I also spoke to one of the Dayanim in our community he did not even think
that saying *kaddish* with mixed seating was an issue as he thought that
mixed seating was only an issue in a *Shul*.
Others told me the same (i.e. that only a *shul* requires separation) in
the name of Rav Schachter *shlit”a* .
However, I saw Rav Herschel Schachter *shlit”a* at shacharis this week so I
asked him my question. He responded that it would be better if they would
have the *siyyum* before the dinner. I asked why and he responded “*Davar
She’bekedushah*”.
I asked him so why do people recite *Kedushah* after a *siyyum* with mixed
seating. And he responded, “Nu, Nu”. (Which is a common response from Rav
Schachter to questions of that sort.)
Interestingly enough the Gemara in Succos brings a “proof” for separation
of men and women from a non-“*Davar She’bekedushah*” the funeral in
*Zecharyah*.
Of course we are not discussing whether a particular practice is good or
bad or even “best practices”, but rather whether it is required or not.
Yonatan
: Interestingly enough the Gemara in Succos brings a "proof" for separation
: of men and women from a non-"Davar She'bekedushah" the funeral in
: Zecharyah.
The other example is Simchas Beis haSho'eivah.
Notice that one is extreme joy, and the other extreme sadness. Neither
was tefillah betzibbur. Should the fact that chazal thought it was
natural to apply these precedents to tefillah be taken to mean that --
"thanks to my knees for bowing at modim" aside -- Chazal found such
extremes of emotion common during davening?
-Micha