Lifnei Iveir

Avodah
1

After Machlon and Kilyon died, we find in Ruth 1:8-13 that Naami tells both Orpah and Ruth to go back home. Didn't Naami realize that they would return to avodah zara if they'd do that? Even if they had not converted yet, wouldn't this be an example of Lifnei Iveir?

One answer I can think of is that perhaps this eventuality didn't occur to Naami. But several pesukim later, in 1:15, Naami tells Ruth that Orpah has "returned to her people and to her god; go back with your sister-in-law." Naami persists not only in trying to convince Ruth to leave, but she explicitly urges Ruth to return to her former god!

This question is certainly relevant according to those who understand that Orpah and Ruth converted prior to marrying Machlon and Kilyon. But it is relevant even to those who hold that Ruth did not convert until afterward.

It is one thing to dissuade a prospective ger from joining us. But Ruth had been living with a Jewish family for ten years! How can Naami urge her to go back to avoda zara? I know that the meforshim give various reasons why Naami did not want them to accompany her back to Eretz Yisrael, but do those reasons justify this Lifnei Iveir?

Akiva Miller

2

: It is one thing to dissuade a prospective ger from joining us. But Ruth
: had been living with a Jewish family for ten years! How can Naami urge
: her to go back to avoda zara? I know that the meforshim give various
: reasons why Naami did not want them to accompany her back to Eretz
: Yisrael, but do those reasons justify this Lifnei Iveir?

On a technical level, it would be mesayeia, not lifnei iver, and I'm
not sure that mesayeia applies to 7 mitzvos benei Noach.

But if you're just asking how it's moral... Just thinking off-the cuff.

The timing is between eishes Shimshon and Shelomo's mistake with many
of his wives. It would seem that women only pretending monotheism to
join the Jewish People was common. If Rus was going to be a pagan either
way, better not one who people would mistake for a geir.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

3

I asked if Naami had violated Lifnei Iveir:

: It is one thing to dissuade a prospective ger from joining us.
: But Ruth had been living with a Jewish family for ten years! How
: can Naami urge her to go back to avoda zara?

R' Micha Berger answered:

On a technical level, it would be mesayeia, not lifnei iver, and
I'm not sure that mesayeia applies to 7 mitzvos benei Noach.

Really? Perhaps I need a better understanding of the difference between the two. I thought that mesayeia was when the other person is going to violate the halacha anyway and I am merely helping him to do it. But in this case, the three of them have been living for ten years as a family unit, and regardless of the geirus (or lack of it) I presume there was no avodah zara under Naami's roof. This status quo could have continued for a long time, as we see even Orpah was reluctant to leave.

But Naami urged and insisted, and it is difficult for me to imagine a bigger michshol. Pasuk 1:15 - "So [Naami] said: Look! Your sister in law has returned to her people and to her god. Go follow your sister in law." One of us might as well hand the car keys to our child on Shabbos and tell him to have a good time.

Akiva Miller
KennethGMiller@juno.com

4

: R' Micha Berger answered:
:> On a technical level, it would be mesayeia, not lifnei iver, and
:> I'm not sure that mesayeia applies to 7 mitzvos benei Noach.

: Really? Perhaps I need a better understanding of the difference between
: the two. I thought that mesayeia was when the other person is going to
: violate the halacha anyway and I am merely helping him to do it...

My understanding is that mesayeia is when the person was capable of doing
the aveirah without you. Not "would" but "could". Whereas lifnei iveir
is when the nazir is mei'eivar hanahar and you're giving him passage.

The sugya is on AZ 6a-b.

But, I see the Ran does say mesayeia apply to preventing a nakhri from
violating the 7MBN.

The Rama *YD 151:2) says we are meiqil and allow selling AZ items
to nakhriim if they already own similar items or can buy them elsewhere,
but there are machmirim.

See the Shach YD 151:6-7, who discusses this machloqes rishonim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

5

R' Micha Berger wrote:

My understanding is that mesayeia is when the person was capable
of doing the aveirah without you. Not "would" but "could". Whereas
lifnei iveir is when the nazir is mei'eivar hanahar and you're
giving him passage.

The sugya is on AZ 6a-b.

...

I will be the first to point out that Lifnei Iveir is one the many topics where my learning and expertise is severely lacking. Even so, I suspect that there is something missing from RMB's definition. In the simplest reading of the pasuk (Vayikra 19:14), Rashi says that Lifnei Iveir forbids one to give bad advice to another person. It is difficult to imagine a worse piece of advice than telling Ruth to follow Orpah back her her previous god.

Googling the question "What is Lifnei Iveir" brought me to an interesting article by Rabbi Yirmiyohu Kaganoff (bio at http://rabbikaganoff.com/about) The full article is at http://tinyurl.com/ka3pwq6 and I would like to quote the part where he gives three different categories of Lifnei Iveir:

I. Inciting – maiseis

This occurs when a person was not even considering doing an
aveirah until someone encouraged him. Thus, the instigator incited
the performing of the aveirah and is therefore a maiseis.

II. Encouraging — chanufah

One violates this prohibition by complimenting someone for doing a
sin, thus implying that sinning is acceptable.

III. Enabling – lifnei iveir

One violates this prohibition if the sinner wanted to do the
aveirah, but was unable to do so without assistance. The person
who enables the performing of the aveirah violates lifnei iveir.

IV. Even when none of these Torah prohibitions are involved,
helping the sinner do the aveirah sometimes violates the rabbinic
prohibition of mesaya’a y’dei ovrei aveirah, assisting someone who
is sinning.

(It is unfortunate that the article did not cite a source or precedent for these categories, but please bear with me.)

It seems to me that RMB is giving a useful tool to distinguish between category 3 and category 4, but that tool is useful only in the case where a person already has the *desire* to commit a sin, but it lacking the *ability* to some degree. If a person has only a mild inability to sin, then the enabler is merely mesayeia; but if the person has a severe inability, then the enabler is placing a real michshol.

But what of the case where a person does *not* yet have a desire to sin? Rabbi Kaganoff is saying that one who incites or encourages him to do it is violating Lifnei Iveir. Even if the person already has the ability to do the sin, it was below his "bechirah point" until he was egged on to do it. Rabbi Kaganoff offers an example:

Inciting Someone to Sin – maiseis

The classic case of maiseis is when the nachash encouraged Chavah
to eat the forbidden fruit. Even though the nachash itself did
not eat, Hashem punished it for inciting Chavah to sin (Gemara
Sanhedrin 29a). Similarly, if Reuven incites Shimon to sin in a
way that Shimon had not considered, Reuven is a maiseis.

And so my question can be rephrased: If the nachash was wrong to tell Chava to eat the fruit, wasn't Naami wrong to tell Ruth to follow Orpah back to her god?

Akiva Miller
KennethGMiller@juno.com

6

: I will be the first to point out that Lifnei Iveir is one the many
: topics where my learning and expertise is severely lacking. Even so,
: I suspect that there is something missing from RMB's definition...

: It seems to me that RMB is giving a useful tool to distinguish between
: category 3 and category 4, but that tool is useful only in the case where
: a person already has the *desire* to commit a sin, but it lacking the
: *ability* to some degree...

Correct. I was only thinking of the original question, and the gemara only
discusses the one chiluq -- between lifnei iveir (deOraisa) and mesayeia'
(deRabbanan).

: But what of the case where a person does *not* yet have a desire to
: sin? Rabbi Kaganoff is saying that one who incites or encourages him
: to do it is violating Lifnei Iveir. Even if the person already has the
: ability to do the sin, it was below his "bechirah point" until he was
: egged on to do it...

I didn't understand Orpah's offer that way. She was convinced her
daughters-in-law "converted" for the sake of marriage; and depending
which midrashim you quote, that likely wasn't even an actual conversion.

But if Rus didn't really buy into Jewish beliefs, she would be better
off not going through a pro-forma conversion than in the same boat
as Delilah or Shelomo's wives.

Gut Voch!
-Micha