modim

Avodah
1

The gemara BK 16a says that one who does not bend in Modim after 7 years
his spine turns into a snake. Given that spines probably don't last 7 years
and the cemeteries are not filled with snakes I don't take the gemara
literally (see however Tosafot ve-hu and kaf hachaim)

I am more disturbed by the claim (Kaf haChaim in the name of the Zohar)
that one who doesnt ben at modim does not come back in techiyat hametim.
First the gemara in perek chelek implies that most people return in
techiyat hametim. Second the popular opinion is that even the wicked spend
11-12 months in gehinom and then go to gan eden and presumably return in
techiyat hamettim.

What bothers me the most is the sense of priorities. Without putting down
bending at modim I find it hard to imagine that it is worse than murder,
chillul shabbat, gilui arayot etc. According to this zohar large
percentages of the Jewish people will not be resurrected over a "minor"
halacha.

2

: I am more disturbed by the claim (Kaf haChaim in the name of the Zohar)
: that one who doesnt ben at modim does not come back in techiyat hametim.
...
: What bothers me the most is the sense of priorities. Without putting down
: bending at modim I find it hard to imagine that it is worse than murder,
: chillul shabbat, gilui arayot etc. According to this zohar large
: percentages of the Jewish people will not be resurrected over a "minor"
: halacha.

Well, since you already are reading this midrashically, how about...

Someone who doesn't bow at modim isn't being used literally, but as a
description of a kind of ingrate. Mouths the words of thank you, but
isn't moved by them.

And perhaps the point being made by the Zohar is that kifui tovah can be
the first step, the point at which a soul goes off course and ends up --
after a downward spiral through worse offenses -- not being revivable
at techiyas hameisim.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

3

I don't know how minor this is. Think about it; we're not talking about
someone who never comes to shul, and never hears Modim in the first place.
What kind of person comes to shul, hears Modim and knows what it is, and
yet doesn't bow? Surely once you're there and you hear Modim your back
bows automatically, even if you're in the middle of a heated discussion
of <s>politics</s> <s>real estate</s> er, the Daf. Yes, definitely the
Daf. Even if you're deep in, er, the sugya, so long as you're aware that
the chazan is saying Modim, you bow. The kind of person who comes to shul
and *doesn't* bow at Modim must have some kind of agenda, like the fellow
who says "Modim Modim", or "Al Kan Tzipor...", and thus is a pretty serious
sinner.

4

<<Surely once you're there and you hear Modim your back
bows automatically, even if you're in the middle of a heated discussion
of <s>politics</s> <s>real estate</s> er, the Daf. >>

The gemara in Baba Kama 16a seems to be talking about bowing at modim in
the shemonei esre and not modim derabban (the gemara is talking about the
spine changing to a snake 7 years after death)

Looking at it again Tosafot (appears on 16b) asks the same question that I
mentioned that all Jews have a share in the world to come. Nevetheless as I
mentioned Kaf HaChaim brings a Zohar that one does lose one share in the
world to come for not bowing at modin.

5

Even better. What kind of person davens, and yet davka stays upright at
modim? Only someone who's got a theological issue with bowing to Hashem.

6

Someone with a back problem.

Lisa

7

That is clearly not whom the gemara or the zohar means.

8

Interesting. Is the Kaf haChaim, and the Zohar, interpreting the gemara in Bava Kamma 16a?
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41181&st=&pgnum=106
https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/בבא_קמא_טז_ב

That is, given that techiyat hameitim is from the luz bone, which is located atthe end of the spinal column, could the gemara be taken, allegorically, to mean that those people won't be resurrected?
Kol Tuv,Josh Waxman

9

: That is, given that techiyat hameitim is from the luz bone, which is
: located atthe end of the spinal column, could the gemara be taken,
: allegorically, to mean that those people won't be resurrected?

Teaser for my post
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/but-name-of-city-was-luz-originally&gt;

    But the name of the city was "Luz" originally
    by micha · [15 Kislev '765] - Fri, Dec 16, 2005

     And he [Ya'aqov] called the name of that place Beis-el, but the name
     of the city was Luz originally.
           - Bereishis 28:19

   Luz, the original name for Beis-el, is apparently the name of a kind of
   tree, usually translated "chestnut". It's one of the kinds of wood from
   which Ya'aqov avinu made sticks for the sheep and goats to look at...

   Bereishis Rabba (69:8) discusses the amazing properties of living in
   the city of Luz:
     * They always told the truth.
     * No one in the city died. When people got old and tired, they needed
       to move out for nature to take its course.
     * The city was never conquered by Sancheirev, and wasn't destroyed by
       Nevuchadnetzar at the end of the first commonwealth...

    Luz is also the name of a special bone in the body, where the skull and
    spine meet. Two medrashim associate the luz bone with Hadrian y"sh....

    Luz seems particularly connected with Yaiaqov, the one who renames it.
    First, his service of G-d centers around emes, truth, the middah
    exemplified by the citizens of Luz. He uses the luz sticks...
    ...
    The mishnah says "derekh eretz qodmah laTorah -- proper behavior in
    society is a prerequisite to Torah." Our aggaditos and midrashim seem
    to converge on underscoring that point. Luz is the city of truth, it
    has the permanence of truth both territorially and in the lifespans of
    its inhabitants. And it's truth, the personality trait about which
    Yaiaqov centers his service of Hashem, which determines techiyas
    hameisim. All of these medrashim refer to Luz, to the trait. When
    referring to applying the pursuit of truth to Torah study or
    worshipping Hashem, then we progress from Luz to Beis-el.

    The stick shows the influence of environment...

    The bone luz is situated just where the mind connects to the body. It
    is therefore, in a very real sense, "beis keil", G-d's "home" in this
    world. Ya'aqov builds a circle of stones in which to sleep at this
    spot, which -- as R' Hirsch notes ad loc -- is the first home of
    Israel. He gets a vision of a ladder between heaven and earth, an
    externalized luz bone between mind and body.

    Once one has the foundation of "Luz", one has the proper personality
    and attitude to provide some solidity in time and in social context.
    Then one is capable of building that derekh eretz into Torah, making
    their soul a house of G-d.

:-)BBii!
-Micha