Which is it -- if Rav Shimon named his seifer grammatically
correctly (not a given) did he name it Shaarei Yosher or Shaarei Yashar?
_Tir'u baTov_!
-Micha
It seems to me that the natural and obvious pronunciation of those
letters is "yashar", so the fact that the sefer is known as "yosher",
a far less obvious pronunciation, proves that it is the correct one.
Also, most titles of seforim in the form "shaarei X" describe what
the gates lead to, rather than the person who uses them. It's more
likely that this title conforms to that model than that it doesn't.
(I dismiss the third possibility, that "yashar" refers to the author,
since that would be the opposite of humility.)
Unless yashar is a noun (which as far as I know it never is), it must be
Yosher. Shaarei is smichut, and needs to be followed by a noun, like
Yosher. Or am I
missing something? Jeremy
Yashar means "a straight person". The title could refer to the person
using the gates, or (IMO far less likely) to the author. But for the
reasons I gave, I think it more likely that the author intended "yosher".
It is only modern Israeli Hebrew that insists that yosher has a vav, it can
be pronounced yosher without a vav as well.
Of course it can; who suggested otherwise? The only question is whether
this is such an instance. I think it likely that it is.
For the word "yosher", is it really only modern Israeli Hebrew, or is it
any post-Tanach UNpointed Hebrew that omits the vav?
Compare to Elokim, which never had a vav until recently, and to Chanukah,
which has always had the vav when nekudos are omitted.
Akiva Miller
Which is the way it appears in the T'NaKh: 14 times, all haser (without a vav).
There is no way it could be Yashar, and only people who do not know Hebrew would pronounce it like that. Unfortunately, many graduates of day schools know more or less how to translate words, but have no knowledge of morphology or syntax.
Which is why I have heard many rabbis who have learned YD referring to "tzumas hagidim," rather than "tzomes." (True, the word is not in the T'NaKh, but the word is common by Chazal, including the phrase tzomes had'rakhim, and is punctuated that way in L'shon Chazal, and I heard many Rabbonim from Europe pronounce it that way).
Rabbi Seth Mandel
Why couldn't it be "yashar"? That's a real word, why couldn't the
sefer be called that? I've given the reasons why I think it wasn't,
but how can you declare it impossible?
We see the plural, "yesharim".
Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union
Voice (212) 613-8330 Fax (212) 613-0718 e-mail mandels@ou.org
Must be "shaarei yosher", as has been pointed out. Just worth adding that
having a semichut next to a noun that functions as a modifier is a common
occurrence: "mishchat kodesh", "shekel ha-kodesh", etc. mean "the holy
anointment", "the holy coin". Here too, it means "upright gates."
No, I don't think it does. Titles of this form almost always mean
"the gates that lead to X". Here it means that if you pass through
these gates you will learn how to think straight.
But I don't see how you can dismiss the possibility that it is indeed
"Shaarei Yashar", either meaning the gates through which a straight
person will pass, or the gates belonging to a straight person, i.e.
the author.
For what it's worth, I reviewed dozens of titles of this form on
hebrewbooks.com, and found that in the overwhelming majority,
something like 90%, X referred to what the gates lead to, while
in all the rest X referred to the author. I didn't find any in
which X referred to the reader; but that's no reason why a person
couldn't use it in that way.
I thinks RZS is making a very strong point.
example: shaarei tzedek = gates of righteousness, literally.
but that can mean either of 2 things. "gates which are righteous" is much
less likely than "gates which lead to righteousness"
akiva
Interesting. I agree, "gates that lead to honesty" is a better translation
than "upright gates".
I still think that "shaarei yashar" is exceedingly unlikely.
Interesting. I
agree, "gates that lead to honesty" is a better translation than
"upright gates".
More precisely, honesty's gate, like my back yard's
gate. Without needing to insert a "lead to".
I still think that
"shaarei yashar" is exceedingly unlikely.
I was under the impression
someone had sent me a biblical reference. In any case, I'm pretty
convinced at this point, the masses have it right -- yosher it is.
_Tir'u baTov_!
-Micha
I dont know what predicated this discussion but, if it hasnt been said
before, it is important to distinguish between what is printed as the title
and how that title is/was meant to be pronounced.
The author clearly writes in his introduction that he is publishing his
hidushim as a memorial to his parents zl: yitshak shemuel and rachel, the
combined rashei teivot of which is yod. shin.resh. (and, he clearly states
as well that the letters also include his own name. so so much for the
anti-humility proponents). there is no vav imagined in the spelling.
Now, in terms of how he would have pronounced the letters, i leave to those
versed in such matters. it might be my imagination but in the hebrewbooks
copy of the original 1928 edition it seems to me that the yod in the
running title of the work often has a holam following it -- and i realize
the shin printed with a right side dot occurs in some of the pages under
the letter in "shaarei" so one may think the dot near the yod in y.s.r
would mean nothing in terms of our question, but, as i said, it may be my
imagination, but the dot occurs more often near the yod than near the shin
of shaarei which suggests perhaps the author indeed intended yosher.
I dont know what predicated this discussion but, if it hasnt been said
before, it is important to distinguish between what is printed as the title
and how that title is/was meant to be pronounced.
The author clearly writes in his introduction that he is publishing his
hidushim as a memorial to his parents zl: yitshak shemuel and rachel, the
combined rashei teivot of which is yod. shin.resh. (and, he clearly states
as well that the letters also include his own name. so so much for the
anti-humility proponents). there is no vav imagined in the spelling.
Now, in terms of how he would have pronounced the letters, i leave to those
versed in such matters. it might be my imagination but in the hebrewbooks
copy of the original 1928 edition it seems to me that the yod in the
running title of the work often has a holam following it -- and i realize
the shin printed with a right side dot occurs in some of the pages under
the letter in "shaarei" so one may think the dot near the yod in y.s.r
would mean nothing in terms of our question, but, as i said, it may be my
imagination, but the dot occurs more often near the yod than near the shin
of shaarei which suggests perhaps the author indeed intended yosher.
Interesting. I agree, "gates that lead to honesty" is a better
translation than "upright gates".
Why do you translate "yosher" here as "honesty"? In what way does
this gate lead to honesty? It's not a mussar sefer. It seems to me
far more likely that "yosher" is meant here literally; the sefer
teaches the student how to think straight.
More precisely, honesty's gate, like my back yard's gate. Without
needing to insert a "lead to".
But that is an ambiguous construction. We are distinguishing here
between three separate possible meanings of "X's gate", so it's vital
to be clear on what sense is meant. In this case, neither "gates
belonging to X", i.e. the author, nor "gates intended for X", i.e.
the reader, but "gates leading to X", i.e. the subject.
The author clearly writes in his introduction that he is publishing
his hidushim as a memorial to his parents zl: yitshak shemuel and
rachel, the combined rashei teivot of which is yod. shin.resh. (and,
he clearly states as well that the letters also include his own name.
so so much for the anti-humility proponents).
It's not arrogant to use his initials in the title; many such sefarim
explicitly refer to the author. What would be arrogant would be to
refer to himself as "yashar".
there is no vavimagined in the spelling.
Of course not; who suggested there was?
Shaarei Yosher would mean Gates of Straightness or Gates of Uprightness
Shaarei Yashar would mean Gates of Straight or Gates of Upright.
(RZS's suggestion that it could mean "Gates of the Straight One" is
grammatically possible but extremely unlikely.)
--Toby Katz
t613k@aol.com
--Toby
*--Toby Katz*