Vayichad Yisro - Disparaging Non-Jews

I floated some thoughts on this last year on Avodah, and your feedback
helped me to refine those thoughts, as set out below.

I dedicate this to the memory of my father who left this world 27 years
ago today, when I was 27. His sense of decency and goodwill continues
to inspire me.

I don't pretend to scholarship, but I can perhaps offer a point of
view that has value in helping people see things from a different
perspective. I welcome any further feedback and discussion. I apologize
for any formatting issues in sending this out to the list. I am happy
to send it in PDF format to anyone who requests it. Feel free to share
it with anyone who may be interested or who might benefit from it.

YISRO AND DISPARAGING NON-JEWS

Parshas Yisro is named for Moshe Rabbenu's father-in-law, Yisro. After a
long career as a priest to idolatry, Yisro made a radical life change and
became one of the first converts to Judaism. After Moshe married Yisro's
daughter Tzippora, they lived with Yisro for many years in Midian, until
Moshe returned to Mitzrayim on a divine mission to free the Jewish people.

Immediately following the liberation of the Jewish people from Mitzrayim,
Yisro came out to meet Moshe in the wilderness. After they were reunited,
Moshe recounted to his father-in-law the good that Hashem had done for
the Jewish people, including causing the death of Paroh's entire army
at the sea.

What was Yisro's reaction? The Torah tells us (Shemos, 18:9): "vayichad
Yisro". The simple meaning is "Yisro rejoiced", on hearing this good news.

Rashi brings another interpretation of "vayichad Yisro" from the gemara
(Sanhedrin 94a) where Shmuel says it means that Yisro's flesh "pricked
up" in discomfort, with goosebumps, on hearing of the suffering and
destruction of the Egyptians. The gemara, as quoted by Rashi, immediately
explains and extends this idea: "As Rav [or more likely Rav Pappa --
per Gra and Torah Temimah] stated, this is as the popular saying has it:
'Do not disparage a non-Jew [Aramai] before a ger [convert] unto the
tenth generation'."

The Torah Temimah discusses other places in the gemara and halachah
where the status of a ger continues to the tenth generation of the ger's
descendants, and concludes: "If so, since the status of a ger continues
until the tenth generation, it is prohibited to disparage a non-Jew in
front of him [and his descendants during this time, i.e. to the tenth
generation]."

Rav Steinsaltz in his notes on Sanhedrin 94a cites the Gra who explains
that only after the tenth generation of descendants is the non-Jewish
blood less than a one thousandth, which is the most stringent standard for
bitul/nullification. Alternatively, "ten generations" may be specified
simply to set a very long time frame that would almost always cover
anyone who had a non-Jewish ancestor in living memory.

Whatever the explanation, the reference to ten generations suggests the
need for stringency. Furthermore, the fact that this saying is quoted by
Chazal, and repeated by Rashi, and its precise parameters discussed by
halachic authorities, seems like a good indication that it is teaching
a mussar principle that we are meant to apply in our lives, and is not
to be simply dismissed as an ancient folk saying.

Nowadays, almost any Jewish audience of a significant size, (whether
at a shiur or lecture, in a shul, or any class in a Jewish school)
is quite likely to have gerim or children or grandchildren of gerim
among it. Certainly when we extend those who we must be concerned not
to offend to include all who have any ger forebear within the previous
ten generations, it would have to be assumed that this principle should
be applied when addressing virtually any Jewish setting.

The clearest rationale for this mussar principle is that it is teaching
us to be sensitive to those who have come from outside, and their
descendants, so as to avoid hurting their feelings. At this level it
may perhaps be considered as part of the prohibition of onas devarim
(oppressing with words). This would apply whether or not the offending
statements were true, or partially true. At least we can say with
confidence that this principle, that requires taking into account the
sensitivities of people one is addressing, is part of derech eretz.

But speaking disparagingly about non-Jews is not just likely to hurt the
feelings of gerim and their descendants. Making negative generalizations
about a large class of people (in this case almost the entire human
race!) is also unlikely to be true, and likely to sound crude, not just to
gerim and their descendants, but also to anyone who is uncomfortable with
painting all non-Jews with the same negative brush. Unfortunately, though,
some speakers who have important and insightful messages to deliver to
Jewish audiences, seem sometimes to be unaware what a negative distraction
it is for some people in their audience when they start talking about
"the goyim" in disparaging terms as if non-Jews were a monolithic and
subhuman entity.

Gerim and their descendants who are close enough to real-life non-Jews may
be simply best placed to be able to recognize the falseness and crudeness
of simplistic caricatures and broad-brush negative generalizations. It
is noteworthy that gerim themselves have been on both sides of the line,
so to speak, so they have direct experiential knowledge of what it is
to be a non-Jew and what it is to be a Jew, so they know firsthand the
difference between the two states.

Furthermore, even if there is some truth in certain negative
generalizations, gerim and their descendants may still maintain relations
of hakaras hatov and/or responsibility to non-Jews like their non-Jewish
relatives and community, so as to make total rejection and lack of
concern for them inappropriate and likely to cause offence. And those
bonds of responsibility and hakaras hatov certainly deserve respect,
as part of a Torah-based derech eretz.

Nothing here should be taken to suggest that it is offensive to speak of
the special relationship of the Jewish people to G-d, and the particular
responsibilities of the Jewish people under the Torah, including our
responsibility as Jews (whether Jewish by birth or by conversion)
to maintain our distinctiveness and separateness in accordance with
all the specific requirements of halachah. In the Torah, Hashem says
"Israel is my firstborn son". It should not be offensive to refer to
such distinctness, though of course it must always be expressed in a
sensitive way. Indeed in recent years, even several Popes have referred
to the Jewish people as the "elder brother" of the Christian peoples.

What is problematic is when acknowledgement of proper distinctiveness
and separateness turns into the demonizing or dehumanizing of non-Jews
as a broad class.

This kind of exaggerated negative presentation of non-Jews when it
occurs is often prompted by pure motivations, of encouraging young
Jews to maintain an appropriate separateness and distinctiveness. But
ultimately such a caricaturization of non-Jews, as a way of trying to
protect our children and community, by building psychological walls of
fear and animosity, will likely be counter-productive and undermine the
strengthening of Torah, in at least two ways.

First, if and when our children find out that negative caricatures contain
falsehood, and that there are actually significant numbers of non-Jews
who do not fit the exaggerated negative images, there is a danger that
they will lose trust and rebel against what they see as false teaching,
throwing away much that is true in the process. This is comparable with
the midrash of Chavah being induced to sin as a result of Adam's false
but well-intentioned warning to her that Hashem had forbidden them even
to touch the tree whose fruit was forbidden. When she came in contact
with the tree and nothing happened, she concluded that even eating from
the tree would likewise cause no harm. Exaggerations undermine trust,
and the results are often not good.

Second, the demonization of non-Jews undermines our ability as individuals
and as a community to connect with the uplifting global vision and central
mission of the Jewish people based on the Torah. Avraham was told "all
the nations of the earth shall be blessed through you" (Ber. 22:18). This
was repeated to both Yitzchok (26:3-4) and Yaakov (28:13-14). Our Neviim
teach that the way the Jewish people will bless the world is by being
"a light to the nations". But it is difficult to see how this can come
about, and why Hashem would even want it to come about, if it were
correct that non-Jews are by their nature irredeemable, (incapable of
participating fully in the ge'ula to come). Teaching negative stereotypes
and caricatures about non-Jews as a whole tends to suggest that they are
indeed beyond redemption, and in so doing undermines our will and ability
to fulfill the mission that we have been given to do our part, through
Torah-based conduct, to bring Hashem's ge'ula/redemption to the world.

One further angle is worth mentioning. The way we relate to non-Jews is
part of how we relate to the rest of Hashem's creation. As the Maharal
wrote in Nesivos Olam, 2:50: "A person who loves someone, loves all of
the things which he does. Thus when one loves Hashem it is impossible not
to love his creations. And if a person hates mankind, it is impossible
that he feels love for Hashem who created them."

With all of the above in mind, we can conclude that the Torah's principle
against disparaging non-Jews in any setting where there are gerim or
descendants of gerim, which we learn from the gemara that Rashi cites
in this week's parasha, has at least two purposes. First and foremost,
following this principle will help us to be appropriately sensitive to
the feelings of converts and their families. Secondly, a major benefit
of implementing this principle is to help to inoculate us as Torah
observant Jews from falling into the temptations of crude xenophobia
(fear of outsiders) which would establish in us a mindset inconsistent
with the Torah's noble vision of the role of the Jewish people as a
distinct and separate nation whose refined way of life, and Torah ideas,
will lead to the blessing from Hashem uplifting and redeeming all of
human-kind in a magnificent culmination of creation.

michaelorr@rogers.com

Rav Steinsaltz in his notes on Sanhedrin 94a cites the Gra who explains
that only after the tenth generation of descendants is the non-Jewish
blood less than a one thousandth, which is the most stringent standard for
bitul/nullification.

This doesn't seem tenable to me, because if his non-Jewish "blood"
is less than 100% then he is no longer a ger. The proverb must refer
to a tenth-generation ger, i.e. all of his ancestors for the last
ten generations were gerim. In that case why only 10 generations?
Perhaps because by then the knowledge that his remote ancestors were
not gerim but goyim is only intellectual, and he doesn't relate to it
in any way, any more than we relate to the fact that *our* remote
ancestors were idolaters. I would imagine that this actually takes
significantly less than 10 generations, and that "10 generations" is
merely an expression meaning a very long time, taken from the pesukim
about Mamzerim, Amonim, and Moavim, which says that these may never
enter Kehal Hashem, even after a very long time.

Nowadays, almost any Jewish audience of a significant size, (whether
at a shiur or lecture, in a shul, or any class in a Jewish school)
is quite likely to have gerim or children or grandchildren of gerim
among it. Certainly when we extend those who we must be concerned not
to offend to include all who have any ger forebear within the previous
ten generations, it would have to be assumed that this principle should
be applied when addressing virtually any Jewish setting.

If this is the case today then surely it must have been even more so
in Chazal's day, when giyur was so popular that historians tell us at
one point 10% of the Roman empire was Jewish. And yet they limited the
proverb to the presence of a known ger. Kal vachomer nowadays.

But speaking disparagingly about non-Jews is not just likely to hurt the
feelings of gerim and their descendants. Making negative generalizations
about a large class of people (in this case almost the entire human
race!) is also unlikely to be true, and likely to sound crude, not just to
gerim and their descendants, but also to anyone who is uncomfortable with
painting all non-Jews with the same negative brush.

And yet Chazal had no problem with doing so, and did so all the time.
They didn't worry that there might be a ger in the audience. It also
seems to me that it doesn't apply at all to divrei torah, i.e. passing
on Chazal's worldview, because gerim need to hear that too. Nor did
it apply to a conversation such as Moshe's with Yisro; he must have
known that Yisro would not rejoice at hearing what happened, but he
didn't refrain from telling him.

So when does it apply? Perhaps only to a casual conversation with no
to'eles, i.e. when one wouldn't be allowed to say loshon hora about a Jew.
In such a case, if one is talking to a ger, then the rules of loshon hora
should be extended to goyim as well, in deference not to their reputations
but to his feelings.

But it is difficult to see how this can come about, and why Hashem
would even want it to come about, if it were correct that non-Jews
are by their nature irredeemable, (incapable of participating fully
in the ge'ula to come).

What do you mean by "participate fully"? The nevi'inm tell us what
the goyim's role will be in the geulah: "And strangers will rise and
tend your sheep", "And kings will be your nannies and their princesses
your wetnurses". Their role in the geulah will be as support staff
so that we can learn Torah all day. And giyur will no longer be
available to them. I don't know if that fits your definition of
"full participation".

Rashi brings another interpretation of "vayichadYisro" from the gemara
(Sanhedrin 94a) where Shmuel says it meansthat Yisro's flesh "pricked
up" in discomfort, with goosebumps, onhearing of the suffering and
destruction of the Egyptians. The gemara, asquoted by Rashi, immediately
explains and extends this idea: "As Rav[or more likely Rav Pappa --
per Gra and Torah Temimah] stated, this isas the popular saying has it:

'>Do not disparage a non-Jew [Aramai] beforea ger [convert] unto the

tenth generation'."

Rav Steinsaltz in his notes on Sanhedrin94a cites the Gra who explains
that only after the tenth generation ofdescendants is the non-Jewish
blood less than a one thousandth, which isthe most stringent standard for
bitul/nullification.

Zev Sero: This doesn't seem tenable to me, because if his non-Jewish"blood"
is less than 100% then he is no longer ager. The proverb must refer
to a tenth-generation ger, i.e. all of hisancestors for the last
ten generations were gerim.

MO: It is notnecessary to resort to such a far-fetched interpretation.

A much more natural meaning is that the term “ger... untilthe 10th generation” includes the issue/zera of the actual ger "upuntil the 10th generation."

MO: Nowadays,almost any Jewish audience of a significant size, (whether at a shiur orlecture, in a shul, or any class in a Jewish school)
is quite likely to have gerim or childrenor grandchildren of gerim
among it. Certainly when we extend thosewho we must be concerned not
to offend to include all who have any gerforebear within the previous
ten generations, it would have to beassumed that this principle should
be applied when addressing virtually anyJewish setting.

ZS: Ifthis is the case today then surely it must have been even more so
in Chazal's day, when giyur was so popular thathistorians tell us at
one point 10% of the Roman empire wasJewish. And yet they limited the
proverb to the presence of a known ger. Kal vachomer nowadays.

MO: As per my previous point, they do not limit thisprinciple of proper speech to an actual known ger but include speech to theissue/zera of a ger up to the 10th generation.

But speaking disparagingly about non-Jewsis not just likely to hurt the
feelings of gerim and their descendants.Making negative generalizations
about a large class of people (in this casealmost the entire human
race!) is also unlikely to be true, andlikely to sound crude, not just to
gerim and their descendants, but also toanyone who is uncomfortable with
painting all non-Jews with the samenegative brush.

ZS: Andyet Chazal had no problem with doing so, and did so all the time.
They didn't worry that there might be a ger inthe audience. It also
seems to me that it doesn't apply at all todivrei torah, i.e. passing
on Chazal's worldview, because gerim need tohear that too. Nor did
it apply to a conversation such as Moshe's withYisro; he must have
known that Yisro would not rejoice at hearingwhat happened, but he
didn't refrain from telling him.

So when does it apply? Perhaps only to acasual conversation with no
to'eles, i.e. when one wouldn't be allowed tosay loshon hora about a Jew.
In such a case, if one is talking to a ger, thenthe rules of loshon hora
should be extended to goyim as well, indeference not to their reputations
but to his feelings.

MO: I agree that where there is alegitimate to’eles, that may well override the prescribed sensitivity, to theextent necessary. But I think we alsoneed to be careful about how we interpret what Chazal say about non-Jews. It may not always be as categorically anduniversally negative as it sounds on its surface. We have to interpret this in light of theoverall purpose of Torah in bringing about the geula of the whole world, as discussed below.

MO: > But it is difficult to see how this cancome about, and why Hashem

would even want it to come about, if itwere correct that non-Jews
are by their nature irredeemable,(incapable of participating fully
in the ge'ula to come).

ZS: Whatdo you mean by "participate fully"? The nevi'inm tell us what
the goyim's role will be in the geulah:"And strangers will rise and
tend your sheep", "And kings will beyour nannies and their princesses
your wetnurses". Their role in thegeulah will be as support staff
so that we can learn Torah all day. Andgiyur will no longer be
available to them. I don't know if thatfits your definition of
"full participation".

MO: This is a keyquestion you are raising here and I really should have developed the answer tothis question further as a foundational point.

The mere fact that the entire Jewish people will return tothe land of Israel in the geulah seems like an important key to understanding anumber of things. First, it helps us understand that the non-Jewishnations will not become Jewish, (since if they did they would need to go to EYalso). Second, it seems to show that thenon-Jewish nations will continue to be the overwhelming majority of the earth’spopulation, (unless you make the depressing assumption that the rest of theworld will be rendered desolate in some way, chas vashalom). Further, it seems to show, from the merelogistics, that the “support” role of those nations will generally not beservile, as real nannies and cleaning help generally have to live close.

The term “mamleches kohanim” seems to be a clear key tounderstandinjg the relationship of Jews and non-Jews in the time of geula. Within the Jewish people we have kohanim andhedyotos/laymen, and the kohanim perform certain functions in enabling thepeople to come close to, and to serve, Hashem. Similarly, the entire Jewish people will perform the function of kohanimwith respect to the other nations in the time of geula. This is not a relationship of inferior andsuperior or of overlords and subordinates. In the time of geula, the Jewish people and every one of the non-Jewishnations can be expected, or at least hoped, to reach its full potential inserving Hashem who created them for this very purpose.
I am not going to start trying to address thehundred of verses from Tanach that teach us, not always in a very clear way,about the nature of the ultimate geula. But the very verse you cited about Kings being nursemaids/nurturers(vehayu m’lachim omanayich – Is. 49:23), for example, is associated (homiletically)in the gemara (Zev. 19a) with the concept of the non-Jewish royalty supportingour role as mamleches kohanim, but in a way that does not undermine the statusor dignity of that non-Jewish royalty, but that rather suggests that therelationship will be one of mutual friendship and respect. That is one of the main chapters mentioning theJewish people being a light to the nations, which seems possible and worthwhileonly if the non-Jewish nations areactually worthy of redemption, or can become so.

MO:

Nowadays, almost any Jewish audience of a significant size, ...
is quite likely to have gerim or children or grandchildren of gerim
among it. Certainly when we extend those who we must be concerned not
to offend to include all who have any ger forebear within the previous
ten generations...

ZS:

If this is the case today then surely it must have been even more so
in Chazal's day, when giyur was so popular that historians tell us at
one point 10% of the Roman empire was Jewish. And yet they limited the
proverb to the presence of a known ger. Kal vachomer nowadays.

As per my previous point, they do not limit this principle of
proper speech to an actual known ger but include speech to the
issue/zera of a ger up to the 10^th generation.

You have avoided addressing my objection: if today this must include any
audience, whether it includes a known ger or not, then how much more so
in their day, so why did they limit it in this way? Why did they say
"before a ger", if they meant "before anyone, because you never know
who's a ger"? And if they didn't mean that in their day, then how can
you say that in our day, when we have *fewer* gerim than they did?

Zev Sero:

This doesn't seem tenable to me, because if his non-Jewish "blood"
is less than 100% then he is no longer a ger. The proverb must refer
to a tenth-generation ger, i.e. all of his ancestors for the last
ten generations were gerim.

It is not necessary to resort to such a far-fetched interpretation.
A much more natural meaning is that the term "ger... until the 10^th
generation" includes the issue/zera of the actual ger "up until the
10^th generation."

What's far-fetched about taking the word they used seriously? They didn't
say the descendants of a ger, they said a ger. And we know there is such
a thing as a many-generation ger. So on what basis do you apply it to
someone who isn't a ger, because one of his parents was a yisrael?

I do not know how much of the 10% of the Roman empire that converted
to Judaism were actually geirim. Subtract out the Tzeduqi and Xian
converts -- and any other sect that actually encouraged conversion,
and how many geirim kehalakhah did the Perushim take in?

BTW, that number comes from Bar Hebreus (a 13th cent Syrian Orthodox
bishop) reporting on a sensus back in the days of Claudius (1st cent CE).
And he said the Jewish population of the empire was 6,944,000 but he
also said the number of actual Romans in the Roman empire was also
6,944,000. (Presumably both numbers are of free adult men only.) The
census of Romans is mentioned in contemporaneous sources, but he was
the first to mention Claudius counting Jews.

IOW, there really isn't a reliable source for the whole idea.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Zev Sero:

This doesn't seem tenable to me, because if his non-Jewish "blood"
is less than 100% then he is no longer a ger. The proverb must refer
to a tenth-generation ger, i.e. all of his ancestors for the last ten
generations were gerim.

MO:

It is not necessary to resort to such a far-fetched interpretation.
A much more natural meaning is that the term "ger... until the 10^th
generation" includes the issue/zera of the actual ger "up until the
10^th generation."

ZS:

What's far-fetched about taking the word they used seriously? They didn't
say the descendants of a ger, they said a ger. And we know there is such
a thing as a many-generation ger. So on what basis do you apply it to
someone who isn't a ger, because one of his parents was a yisrael?

Are you seriously saying that this proverb was concerned to address
the case of a "ger" who has only ger ancestors back for 10 generations
(which would be at least 1000 persons)?

Aside from the absurdity of dealing with such an improbable case, such a
person in any case is not a ger since the child of a ger is not thereby a
ger.And if you are going to be loose enough to say a many-generation ger
is still a "ger", then you can say the same about descendants of gerim,
(that they are gerim). That is the Gra's interpretation, according to
Rav Steinsaltz' note as I read it, and WADR seems to me to be the only
reasonable way to understand it.

ZS:

If this is the case today then surely it must have been even more so
in Chazal's day, when giyur was so popular that historians tell us at
one point 10% of the Roman empire was Jewish. And yet they limited the
proverb to the presence of a known ger. Kal vachomer nowadays.

MO:
As per my previous point, they do not limit this principle of proper
speech to an actual known ger but include speech to the issue/zera of
a ger up to the 10^th generation.

ZS:

You have avoided addressing my objection: if today this must include any
audience, whether it includes a known ger or not, then how much more so
in their day, so why did they limit it in this way? Why did they say
"before a ger", if they meant "before anyone, because you never know
who's a ger"? And if they didn't mean that in their day, then how can
you say that in our day, when we have fewer gerim than they did?

MO:
Even assuming that there were many halachic gerim in the days of
Chazal,which has been questioned, there would still be settings where
the people spoken to all have known Jewish yichus, and the principle
set out in the proverb would not be applicable then, by all opinions.

Are you seriously saying that this proverb was concerned to address the case of a "ger"
who has only ger ancestors back for 10 generations (which would be at least 1000 persons)?
Aside from the absurdity of dealing with such an improbable case,

It's not at all improbable. In Chazal's day people were very concerned
with yichus, and unless a ger had some outstanding quality such as
being a talmid chacham, or rich, most yisre'elim would be reluctant
to give him their daughter, so he would be left marring a giyores.
(This didn't work in the other direction, as the gemara says "everyone
runs to [marry] a giyores", but in Chazal's day (and AIUI today as well)
there were a lot more giyoros than gerim, so it was just as well that
they didn't face the same barriers to shiduchim that gerim did.

such a person in any case is not a ger since the child of a ger is
not thereby a ger.

Yes, he is. The status of ger is passed down through the generations,
until a yisrael marries into the familiy. That is plain halacha.

And if you are going to be loose enough to say a many-generation ger
is still a "ger", then you can say the same about descendants of
gerim, (that they are gerim).

If you mean even when they have a yisrael ancestor, then no, they are not.
Once a ger marries a bas yisrael, or a giyores marries a ben yisrael,
the children are benei yisrael, kehal Hashem. It only takes "one drop
of Jewish blood", to use a very inaccurate English expression.

The historical evidence seems overwhelming. And AIUI this has been
reinforced by recent genetic evidence.

: The historical evidence seems overwhelming. And AIUI this has been
: reinforced by recent genetic evidence.

Agreed.
What I questioned was the claim that a large number (10%) of the Roman
Empire were Jewish, not that a large percentage of Jews at the time
were geirim.

I also wondered what percentage of self-identifying Jews were actually
geirim, given that there were non-Perushi movements that proseltized,
and we were already discouraging geirus.

Personally, I think the Romans made sure there weren't that many Jews,
which is why it wouldn't take /that/ many converts for a lot of us to
descend from geirim. Between the First Jewish-Roman War, the Kitos War
in chu"l and Judea, and the Bar Kokhva Revolt, we weren't quite thriving
by the mid 2nd cent CE.

Second, the 10th generation doesn't necesssary mean 1024 (2^10th distinct
grandparents). If that were true, I would have some 280 trillion ancestors
contemporary to Rashi. People marry their cousins, especially when it is
far enough back for them to be unaware of the fact. In a shtetl, everyone
was relate to eachother numerous times over.

See http://www.torahmusings.com/2012/11/who-is-a-ger , section III,
"Who is a Ger: Only the Convert or his Children, too", by RMJBroyde.
The nafqa mina is who may marry a mamzer/-es.

The Tur holds geirus is dominant, any one parent being a geir is enough
to be a geir too, but I didn't see him mention any deadline.

The SA that geirus is recessive, requires both parents being geirim.
Along the way, note that the EhE 7:21 uses "ad kamah doros", which would
seem to indicate lav davqa a literal 10.

(The SA is following the Rambam (IB 15) apparently, and the Ran (Qiddushin,
Rif-daf 30b) takes issue with the Rambam.)

Looking at the codes, I would conclude "10 doros" was taken as an idiom
for "as long as pragmatically possible", perhaps a reference to Noach
to Avraham.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

(mailto:michaelorr@rogers.com)

And if you are going to be loose enough to say a many-generation ger

is still a "ger", then you can say the same about descendants of gerim,
(that they are gerim). That is the Gra's interpretation, according to
Rav Steinsaltz' note as I read it, and WADR seems to me to be the only
reasonable way to understand it.<<

There is some discussion among the meforshim as to whether Yael the wife of
Chever Hakeni (she was the woman who killed the general Sisra in her tent)
was a giyores or a non-Jew. In either case she and her husband were
descendants of Yisro, but those who say she and her husband were gerim are using
the word "gerim" to include all the descendants of Yisro for generations,
as long as they were a separate recognizable group from the rest of Klal
Yisrael -- even though they were Jews.

--Toby Katz
t613k@aol.com
..

Not to mention the fact that to outsiders, Romans becoming Noachides would be considered as Romans becoming Jews.

Lisa

: but those who say [Yael] and her husband [Chever haQeini] were gerim are using
: the word "gerim" to include all the descendants of Yisro for generations,
: as long as they were a separate recognizable group from the rest of Klal
: Yisrael -- even though they were Jews.

To spell things out, Qeini is one of Yisro's 7 names, at listed in
the Mekhilta (quoted by Rashi on Shemos 18:1; the Mekhilta is at
<http://j.mp/1Sgo9zf&gt; on he.wikisource.org, 2nd paragraph "vayishma
Yisro"). He earned the name "sheqana lashamayim veqanah lo Torah --
he was an activist [qana with an alef] for the [One in] heaven, and
aquired Torah for himself."

Also from the Mekhilta:
Shofetim 1:16 refers to "uvenei Qeini chosein Moshe" who joined Benei
Yehudah coming from from Ir haTamarim (a nickname for Yericho), in Negev
Arad, to help them conquer Midbar Yehudah. In DhY I 2:55 we learn of
the Qinim (w/ a chiriq, not a typo) who came meichammas (because of?) /
from Chammas, the father of the house of Reikhav. And from this the
Mekhila concludes that Yonadav ben Rakhav was a descendent of Yisro.

When Rachav's family is saved, it is called "beit aviha" (Yehoshua 6:25),
it would seem this is Chamas's clan.

The gemara (Zevachim 116a) asks what motivated Yisro to come and be
nisgayeir. The first answer is matan Torah. But then the gemara asks
but what about the man de'amar who says Yisro came before matan Torah?
Milkhemes Amaleeiq.

But notice that accoridn this second opinion, their was no beris Sinai
for Yisro to be megayeir to, and yet still the gemara tries to understand
"ba venisgayeir". It seems to me the gemara is assuming Yisro became
something more like a geir toshav.

And in fact, the gemara (Megillah 14b) says that Rakhav converted before
marrying Yehoshua. So we have indication that the Qeini as a whole did
not (at least, not yet) convert.

Which would justify calling Chever and Ya'el geirim even if they were
n-th generation geirei toshav.

BTW, the Yalqut Shim'oni on Yehoshua (remez 9) lists nashim chasidos
giryoros: Hagar, Asnas, Tziporah, Shifrah (!), Pu'ah (!), Bas Par'oh,
Rachav, Rus, and Yael eishes Cheiver haQeini. Implying she herself
converted. But with the inclusion of Shirah and Pu'ah, we know that
Rashi et al did not buy into at least this part of the medrash.

-Micha

None of this is necessary, since the halacha is clear that someone
whose ancestors were all gerim is a ger, even if the family has been
Jewish for centuries.

: None of this is necessary, since the halacha is clear that someone
: whose ancestors were all gerim is a ger, even if the family has been
: Jewish for centuries.

Of course knowing what chumash, Nakh, and the gemara mean is necessary.
And they seem to imply to me that the Qeini were a tribe of geirei toshav,
of whom Tzipporah, Rachav and Ya'el converted.

Notice this also means that the Qeini were a Midyan breakaway, as
Yisro's descendents end up in Judea, not Midyan.

: None of this is necessary, since the halacha is clear that someone
: whose ancestors were all gerim is a ger, even if the family has been
: Jewish for centuries.

Of course knowing what chumash, Nakh, and the gemara mean is necessary.
And they seem to imply to me that the Qeini were a tribe of geirei toshav,
of whom Tzipporah, Rachav and Ya'el converted.

Why do you think they imply that, rather than that they were a tribe
of gerei toshav, for generations. That Yael was a giyores doesn't
mean that she converted.

As to whether someone whose ancestors are all geirim is a geir, that
appears to be the SA's position WRT who may marry a mamzer. And we
are machmir in not letting her marry a kohein (AhS 7:21) but the
Pischei Teshuvah 4:3 says that bedi'eved, staying married is the
better choice. Not only do we not recommend a gett, we disrecommend
it.

Yes, because the Torah doesn't forbid a giyores, it forbids a zonah,
which we understand to include anyone not born Jewish. A giyores who
was born Jewish isn't what the Torah meant by "zonah".

When it comes to serarah, the NbY (qama CM 1) says that Rechav'am was
not barred as a ben geirim.

Why should he have been? His father was a Yisrael.

Meanwhile, I found an answer to the question in the OP -- Rambam,
Issurei Bi'ah 15:8 does not refer to 10 generations.

Of course not. I don't recall anyone suggesting that it did.
I'm not aware of *any* halacha that uses a boundary of 10 generations.

: >And they seem to imply to me that the Qeini were a tribe of geirei toshav,
: >of whom Tzipporah, Rachav and Ya'el converted.

: Why do you think they imply that, rather than that they were a tribe
: of gerei toshav, for generations. That Yael was a giyores doesn't
: mean that she converted.

To repeat:

1- Whatever geirus Yisro underwent, it didn't require it being after
maamad har sinai.

2- It did require Rachav convert to marry Yehoshua.

3- That Yalqut is discussing people who converted, eg, "al sheqorvah
atzmah kakh qorvah haMaqom."

...
: >When it comes to serarah, the NbY (qama CM 1) says that Rechav'am was
: >not barred as a ben geirim.

: Why should he have been? His father was a Yisrael.

Please see the NbY, who doesn't suggest your limitation. He just says
a ben geirim can lead. Maybe the NbY holds like the Tur, making geirus
dominant (rather the Rambam and SA who hold it's recessive).

-Micha

There was giyur before Sinai, but it just meant becoming a naturalized
citizen of Bnei Yisrael rather than whatever one was before. There was
no kedusha involved.

According to the view that the story of Shlomit bat Divri's son took
place before matan torah, this was the question before Moshe: When he
found out that he was not considered a Ben Yisrael because Bnei Noach's
yichus goes after the father, he was megayer, so Moshe had to ask whether
this wiped out his conviction, as it would do after matan torah. The
answer was no, it didn't; the aspect of giyur that wipes out all previous
sins is the entry into the Bris, not the change of nationality. (Malbim)

Gerus did have a "religious" as well as a "national" aspect in that a ger
had to have a bris milah even before Sinai.

--Toby Katz
t613k@aol.com
..

: On 02/10/2016 02:58 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
:>1- Whatever geirus Yisro underwent, it didn't require it being after
:>maamad har sinai.

: There was giyur before Sinai, but it just meant becoming a naturalized
: citizen of Bnei Yisrael rather than whatever one was before. There was
: no kedusha involved.

Agreed, but whaterver geirus Yisro underwent, it wasn't what we call a
geir tzedeq. One of the sources for learning milah utevilah is maamad
Har Sinai. Had Yisro (of this version) stayed, he would have undergone
entered Beris Sinai then, along with Benei Yisrael. But he didn't.

Aside from Rachav still requiring geirus, despite being a Qeini.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha