Zilzul Shabbos

Among the arguments that came up in the discussion of the Kosher Switch
was that it's zilzul Shabbos.

The thought hit me, though... Refraining from operating electrical
devices has only been a potential issue for 125 years or so. And except
for Yekkes, most of our ancestors come from places where it has been
less than a century since electricity became part of our lives.

So it's very hard to say that "not using electricity" is a defining
feature of the Shabbos experience.

Contrast this to hotza'ah, including haavarah, which take up what seems
like 1/3 of chazal's discussion of issur melakhah (rough estimate from
Berakhos and Eruvin in mishna, Tosefta, Y-mi and Bavli).

When community eruvin got started, wasn't there a much easier argument
of zilzul? Why wasn't it made? Indeed we use the general kelal of being
meiqil WRT eiruvin to quite an extent to build one. And what does the
fact that a community eruv is NOT zilzul Shabbos say about the nature
of zilzul Shabbos and its applicability to nidon didan?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

R' Micha Berger wrote:

Among the arguments that came up in the discussion of the Kosher
Switch was that it's zilzul Shabbos.

... what does the fact that a community eruv is NOT zilzul
Shabbos say about the nature of zilzul Shabbos and its
applicability to nidon didan?

Excellent point. And I'd like to add another point: There are those who
have argued that the availability of various types of timers (including
those with software and adjust themselves for varying sunset times)
have made the Kosher Switch unnecessary. I disagree strongly.

The Kosher Switch, and similar devices do not merely add convenience,
but can do a lot for lessening tzaar, and that is a valid and recognized
halachic consideration.

There were many times when I went to bed earlier than planned, but the
light would not go out for another hour, and it was keeping me awake. And
there were many times when my seudah lasted longer than expected, but
the lights had gone out and we benched in dim light.

There were many times when I set the air conditioning for what was
expected to be a very hot day, and when it turn out to be mild, we
all froze in the cold house. And there were many times when I left the
air conditioning off, and regretted it when the day turned hotter than
expected.

Of course, a couple of centuries ago, people did not have these
conveniences, and they learned to cope with them. But I really believe
that for us, who have gotten addicted to them, it is a real tzaar when
we must do without.

(None of the above should be construed as meaning that I endorse any
particular sort of device. I'm only talking about devices which we are
allowed to use on Shabbos.)

[Email #2. -micha]
R' Micha Berger asked:

When community eruvin got started, wasn't there a much easier
argument of zilzul? Why wasn't it made?

I'm not sure which period of history you're referring to with the phrase
"when community eruvin got started", but here's my attempt at an answer:

Eruvin did not allow something which had been previously assur, the
way timers do and the way the Shabbos Switch would (according to its
supporters).

Beginning in Moshe Rabenu's day, people were very careful not to carry
from a Reshus Hayachid to a Reshus Harabim, or vice versa, or 4 amos
within a Reshus Harabim. But everything else was no problem. People
would carry from one home to another within the same chatzer without
thinking twice. Or even to a home across the street, IF that street was
NOT a Reshus Harabim.

But over time, accidents started to happen, because it is not always
so easy to determine what's a Reshus Harabim and what's not. So at
a certain point (either by David Hamelech's beis din, or Shlomo's, I
don't remember) TWO halachos were enacted, at the SAME tme: One, that
hotzaah was forbidden in a wide variety of areas other than within one
Reshus Hayachid. Two, that these other areas could be transformed into
a Reshus Hayachid by following some specific rules.

The net result is that after Hilchos Eruvin were instituted, there
were NO actions which people could be done that were not being done
before. No one said, "Now the neighborhood can have a picnic on Shabbos
afternoon!", because they could have done this all along, if there was
no Reshus Harabim running through. Thus, no one lamented the zilzul
Shabbos caused by allowing picnics which had previously been forbidden,
because they had NOT previously been forbidden.

I suppose it is possible that in the beginning, these procedures were
used only by small neighborhoods (chatzeros and not much larger), and
it was only much later that they were used by entire communities. If
that's what RMB was referring to, then I'll have to stop here and let
a historian continue.

Akiva Miller

RMicha Berger wrote:

Among the arguments that came up in the discussion of the Kosher Switch

was that it's zilzul Shabbos.

The thought hit me, though... Refraining from operating electrical

devices has only been a potential issue for 125 years or so. And except
for Yekkes, most of our ancestors come from places where it has been
less than a century since electricity became part of our lives.

So it's very hard to say that "not using electricity" is a defining

feature of the Shabbos experience.<

     True; but not putting a light on or off *has* been a defining feature
of the Shabbos experience since the mitzva of Shabbos was given, so
accomplishing it by any means might properly be considered a zilzul
Shabbos. (Of course, by this argument, putting an electric light on or off
should be prohibited even if the use of electricity is not a m'lacha.)

Contrast this to hotza'ah, including haavarah, which take up what seems

like 1/3 of chazal's discussion of issur melakhah (rough estimate from
Berakhos and Eruvin in mishna, Tosefta, Y-mi and Bavli).<

     I assume that "Berakhos" should be replaced by "Shabbos."

When community eruvin got started, wasn't there a much easier argument

of zilzul? Why wasn't it made? Indeed we use the general kelal of being
meiqil WRT eiruvin to quite an extent to build one. And what does the
fact that a community eruv is NOT zilzul Shabbos say about the nature
of zilzul Shabbos and its applicability to nidon didan?<

     What tzuras hapesach and eiruv permit is not carrying prohibited by
the Torah. Rather, it is, in effect, a built-in exception to the issurim
imposed mid'rabbanan by two g'zeiros: the classification of certain areas,
which min haTorah are m'kom p'tur, as a new entity called karmelis, and the
imposing of a prohibition of hotza'a from one r'shus hayachid to another of
different ownership. Both were in use long before there was a city eruv.
E.g., persons sharing a two-family house with a common fenced yard would
make an eruv to permit carrying to and from their living quarters to the
others' and to the yard. Likewise, a house opening to an unfenced yard
would make a tzuras hapesach to permit carrying between house and yard.
And, of course, two houses opening to a common unfenced yard would make a
tzuras hapesach to "enclose" the yard, and then an eruv to permit carrying
among houses and yard.

     The city eruv was not an introduction of a new practice, but a
larger-scale use of already common practices. How does this constitute
zilzul Shabbos?

EMT

:> So it's very hard to say that "not using electricity" is a defining
:> feature of the Shabbos experience.

: True; but not putting a light on or off *has* been a defining feature
: of the Shabbos experience since the mitzva of Shabbos was given, so
: accomplishing it by any means might properly be considered a zilzul
: Shabbos. (Of course, by this argument, putting an electric light on or off
: should be prohibited even if the use of electricity is not a m'lacha.)

As would replacing gefilte fish with sushi?

It's not that people from Sinai to around 100 years ago actually
experienced avoiding the lightswitch, nor did they even consciously
experience not having one -- since there was no conception of an
alternative. Not using electricity, and saying that qedushas shabbos
requires avoiding electricity are really two different things,
experientially.

100 years ago we had an opportunity to do something new on Shabbos,
much like when shomerei Shabbos first learned of sushi. The difference
is that we did assur one new opportunity, and not the other.

...
: What tzuras hapesach and eiruv permit is not carrying prohibited by
: the Torah. Rather, it is, in effect, a built-in exception to the issurim
: imposed mid'rabbanan by two g'zeiros...
...
: The city eruv was not an introduction of a new practice, but a
: larger-scale use of already common practices. How does this constitute
: zilzul Shabbos?

Yes, that explains why it's nothing clearer cut than zilzul Shabbos.
AIUI, worrying about zilzul means that the mechanism is mutar, but
the goal is one that cheapens Shabbos, removes some of the feeling of
its qedushah.

Like taking the pre-existing concept of eiruv as a way to have a reshus
that was no included in Shelomo ubeis dino's original issur hotza'ah
and stretching it to a much bigger area than ever before, so that most
people never have reason to leave it most weeks. So that the entire
issur goes from being one of the dominant features of Shabbos (judging
just in blatt of discussion) to barely ever experienced.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

RMB wrote:

Yes, that explains why it's nothing clearer cut than zilzul Shabbos.
AIUI, worrying about zilzul means that the mechanism is mutar, but
the goal is one that cheapens Shabbos, removes some of the feeling
of its qedushah.

Like taking the pre-existing concept of eiruv as a way to have a
reshus that was no included in Shelomo ubeis dino's original issur
hotza'ah and stretching it to a much bigger area than ever before,
so that most people never have reason to leave it most weeks. So
that the entire issur goes from being one of the dominant features
of Shabbos (judging just in blatt of discussion) to barely ever
experienced.

RAW actually deals with this explicitly by citing IIRC Rambam on why Chazal
legislated mutze. We are not all farmers or builders, not even cooks and
bakers. Hence, many of us hardly ever come close to deoraitot of Shabbat.
However, Shabbaton requires shevita hanikeret,so Chazal legislated muktze
to create a shevita hanikeret. Says RAW, even if he is wrong on electricity
being a deoraita (but he doesn't think he is wrong), nonetheless, the
consensus of poskim on elecricity makes it into something akin to muktze.

That never happened regarding gefillte fish [which outside Hungary hardly
anyone ever ate except on Yom Tov, since what passes for gefillte fish is
just the filling. <ducking and running>]. No one ever suggested it is
chillul Shabbos to eat gevldige Sushi. At worst, some puerile yeshive
boocher called it goiyishe maakhoolim.

Chilul Shabbos, no, but I have heard people seriously claim that it's
forbidden to eat milchigs on Shabbos because it's "not shabbosdik",
and specifically citing as "obviously" ridiculous the idea of eating
lasagna on Shabbos. Which struck me as funny, since I recall one Rosh
Hashana, no less, being confronted with an excellent milchig lasagna,
made with fake meat, and having to wait to eat it because I was still
fleishig from lunch.